Visit CDNOW for The Specials Discography The Specials' On-line Community

Information 2 Tone not really Ska?!?!

Post new topic Reply to topic
TheSpecials2.com Forum Index » General Music  Goto page 1, 2  Next 
View previous topic :: View next topic
AuthorMessage
edtaylor007
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 07 Jan 2009
Posts: 101
Location: Loughton

Post subject: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."
PostPosted:
Tue May 27, 2014 11:48 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Trojan
Too Hot


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 2479
Location: Area 3

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


The poster has a point. 2 Tone was more ska influenced than pure ska. It owes as much to punk in terms of energy and sensibility as it does to the sounds of JA.
_________________
Richard Eddington is innocent.

http://2-tone.info/
PostPosted:
Tue May 27, 2014 1:32 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
appyammer
Gangster
Gangster


Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 279

Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I wouldn't argue too much - but I'm sure I'm one of many many thousands who found the original/authentic version of ska thanks to the Specials etc, and have loved both "versions" ever since.
PostPosted:
Tue May 27, 2014 3:39 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Huggy
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Virginia, USA

Post subject: Reply with quote

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska."

Yes the 70s "Ska revival" was different than the original Ska movement.

But listen to "A Message to you Rudy" by Dandy Livingstone and the song covered by the Specials (or any of the other covers too numerous to mention), and then tell me they didn't have much in common Wink
PostPosted:
Tue May 27, 2014 6:35 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
HarryJ185
Gangster
Gangster


Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Belfast

Post subject: Reply with quote

The bands themselves were influenced by / grew up listening to ska, and all the bands did cover original ska songs. Without ska influences, they would not have sounded the way they did. I started listening to Two Tone and then starting with 20 Reggae classics, delved into the original artists and soon expanded my collection to include ska, reggae, rocksteady, and dub. I do not know that I would have LPs by Linton Kwesi Johnston, Lee Perry, King Tubby, Augustus Pablo, Dillinger, Culture, Desmond Dekker, Skatalites, Ethiopians, Toots and the Maytals, Prince Buster, Yabby You, U Roy, Scientist...the list goes on, if it was not for the introduction to these genres from the 70s revival.

However, I do think that Two Tone had its own unique sound which was heavily influenced by punk. And even then I think the Beat, Selecter, Specials and Madness did not restrict themselves to ska with subsequent releases after their first LPs.
PostPosted:
Tue May 27, 2014 10:00 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Sugarman
Too Hot


Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 6062
Location: Sun Valley

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


When Rico and Dick joined The Specials on stage for Guns Of Navarone through to Skinhead Moonstomp, (now that really was Ska) Smile
_________________
I'm having bags of fun
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 1:21 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
loughers
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 84

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

Sugarman wrote:
edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


When Rico and Dick joined The Specials on stage for Guns Of Navarone through to Skinhead Moonstomp, (now that really was Ska) Smile



Blow.....Mr Rico blow!
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 8:12 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Imani
Too Hot


Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 1845
Location: Bradford

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


I basically agree with the comment. Apart from some faithful covers of old tunes, two tone is a 'British take on Jamaican ska'.

Sloppy journalism is the problem, to be honest. Most of the late 70s/early 80s rock & pop writers who conducted interviews with two tone bands and wrote articles weren't familiar with the original ska - and rocksteady and reggae - that informed each band's work. So, most of them latched onto the word 'ska' as a catch-all label.

It was and is a convenient, snappy buzzword for journalists to write about the music and movement (though there are some who are more aware of the different branches). For marketing departments, promoters and not forgetting BANDS Wink, it's also a neat little genre name to package and sell it. 'British take on Jamaican ska' is too long winded, by about four words.

Taking nothing away from 2 tone, to equate it with ska has unfortunately meant that the originators of the music get overlooked and again, I partly blame poor journalism for that.
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 9:38 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
loughers
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 84

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

Imani wrote:
edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


I basically agree with the comment. Apart from some faithful covers of old tunes, two tone is a 'British take on Jamaican ska'.

Sloppy journalism is the problem, to be honest. Most of the late 70s/early 80s rock & pop writers who conducted interviews with two tone bands and wrote articles weren't familiar with the original ska - and rocksteady and reggae - that informed each band's work. So, most of them latched onto the word 'ska' as a catch-all label.

It was and is a convenient, snappy buzzword for journalists to write about the music and movement (though there are some who are more aware of the different branches). For marketing departments, promoters and not forgetting BANDS Wink, it's also a neat little genre name to package and sell it. 'British take on Jamaican ska' is too long winded, by about four words.

Taking nothing away from 2 tone, to equate it with ska has unfortunately meant that the originators of the music get overlooked and again, I partly blame poor journalism for that.


On the contrary - 2 tone gave the originators of the music a massive boost, both financially and in terms of critical consideration of their music / influence.

Through 2 tone (and other endeavours such as UB40's "Labour of Love") many artists have finally received recognition. How many people here bought their first Trojan box sets as a result of hearing a 2 tone cover?
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 10:43 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
PollyTheWasp
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 54

Post subject: Reply with quote

Loughers is right. I bet a lot of us wouldn't know who Prince Buster was if it hadn't been for the 2-Tone bands.
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 11:40 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Guns of Navarone
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 225
Location: Chelmsford

Post subject: Reply with quote

Like many I found my way back to the original ska/rocksteady/skinhead reggae/dub through 2 Tone, oh and a few friends in the know who showed me the way (I thank you all guys!) Cool
_________________
Musical sensation designed to blow your mind!
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 12:38 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Sugarman
Too Hot


Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 6062
Location: Sun Valley

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

loughers wrote:
Imani wrote:
edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


I basically agree with the comment. Apart from some faithful covers of old tunes, two tone is a 'British take on Jamaican ska'.

Sloppy journalism is the problem, to be honest. Most of the late 70s/early 80s rock & pop writers who conducted interviews with two tone bands and wrote articles weren't familiar with the original ska - and rocksteady and reggae - that informed each band's work. So, most of them latched onto the word 'ska' as a catch-all label.

It was and is a convenient, snappy buzzword for journalists to write about the music and movement (though there are some who are more aware of the different branches). For marketing departments, promoters and not forgetting BANDS Wink, it's also a neat little genre name to package and sell it. 'British take on Jamaican ska' is too long winded, by about four words.

Taking nothing away from 2 tone, to equate it with ska has unfortunately meant that the originators of the music get overlooked and again, I partly blame poor journalism for that.


On the contrary - 2 tone gave the originators of the music a massive boost, both financially and in terms of critical consideration of their music / influence.

Through 2 tone (and other endeavours such as UB40's "Labour of Love") many artists have finally received recognition. How many people here bought their first Trojan box sets as a result of hearing a 2 tone cover?


"How many people here bought their first Trojan box sets as a result of hearing a 2 tone cover?" Wink Smile
_________________
I'm having bags of fun
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 3:07 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Sugarman
Too Hot


Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 6062
Location: Sun Valley

Post subject: Reply with quote

Fats Domino was a Rude Boy Smile
_________________
I'm having bags of fun
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 3:41 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Imani
Too Hot


Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 1845
Location: Bradford

Post subject: Re: 2 Tone not really Ska?!?! Reply with quote

loughers wrote:
Imani wrote:
edtaylor007 wrote:
Saw this online comment to the recent Guardian article on Rude Boys from Shanty Town to Saville Row.

Guess we're all allowed our views however odd.

"I don't think the 70's "Ska revival" had much in common with the original Ska. I often wonder how much people who thought the Two Tone thing was Ska ever actually listened to the real thing. The point about real Ska is that allowed musicians room to play, it was much closer to Jazz. Indeed it's direct roots were in USA RB/Jazz. The Punk influenced wildly fast jump up & down stuff didn't have the musician/artistry elements, the shifting moods & beauty that the original allowed."


I basically agree with the comment. Apart from some faithful covers of old tunes, two tone is a 'British take on Jamaican ska'.

Sloppy journalism is the problem, to be honest. Most of the late 70s/early 80s rock & pop writers who conducted interviews with two tone bands and wrote articles weren't familiar with the original ska - and rocksteady and reggae - that informed each band's work. So, most of them latched onto the word 'ska' as a catch-all label.

It was and is a convenient, snappy buzzword for journalists to write about the music and movement (though there are some who are more aware of the different branches). For marketing departments, promoters and not forgetting BANDS Wink, it's also a neat little genre name to package and sell it. 'British take on Jamaican ska' is too long winded, by about four words.

Taking nothing away from 2 tone, to equate it with ska has unfortunately meant that the originators of the music get overlooked and again, I partly blame poor journalism for that.


On the contrary - 2 tone gave the originators of the music a massive boost, both financially and in terms of critical consideration of their music / influence.

Through 2 tone (and other endeavours such as UB40's "Labour of Love") many artists have finally received recognition. How many people here bought their first Trojan box sets as a result of hearing a 2 tone cover?


Hi loughers. The influence of two tone on their audience's listening habits is well known but I was more making an observation on how the music has been written about. I’m sure whoever made that comment would agree two tone influenced the taste of many fans, helping to make them more aware of a number of Jamaican artists.

As I read it, the commentator's main point was to show the purely musical differences between original ska and 2 tone, not to question the influence of the bands upon their audience's record collections.

All I wanted to highlight was when 2 tone becoming synonymous with ska it also obscured the fact that ska precede 2 tone. It’s a numbers game; Two tone was more commercially successful so more people knew about it and thus identified it as ska than e.g., The Skatalites’ music which was always more underground. Saying that, there's a bit more awareness and it has improved over the years, with various books, magazines and documentaries about ska and reggae. Articles like the Guardian one are good because they show how the music developed.
PostPosted:
Wed May 28, 2014 4:07 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Danbert
Gangster
Gangster


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 308
Location: Manchester

Post subject: Reply with quote

HarryJ185 wrote:
The bands themselves were influenced by / grew up listening to ska, and all the bands did cover original ska songs. Without ska influences, they would not have sounded the way they did. I started listening to Two Tone and then starting with 20 Reggae classics, delved into the original artists and soon expanded my collection to include ska, reggae, rocksteady, and dub. I do not know that I would have LPs by Linton Kwesi Johnston, Lee Perry, King Tubby, Augustus Pablo, Dillinger, Culture, Desmond Dekker, Skatalites, Ethiopians, Toots and the Maytals, Prince Buster, Yabby You, U Roy, Scientist...the list goes on, if it was not for the introduction to these genres from the 70s revival.

However, I do think that Two Tone had its own unique sound which was heavily influenced by punk. And even then I think the Beat, Selecter, Specials and Madness did not restrict themselves to ska with subsequent releases after their first LPs.




That's my story too Harry Cool
_________________
Give us 50p's worth of fuckin' chips then
PostPosted:
Fri May 30, 2014 7:53 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Trojan
Too Hot


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 2479
Location: Area 3

Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbert wrote:
HarryJ185 wrote:
The bands themselves were influenced by / grew up listening to ska, and all the bands did cover original ska songs. Without ska influences, they would not have sounded the way they did. I started listening to Two Tone and then starting with 20 Reggae classics, delved into the original artists and soon expanded my collection to include ska, reggae, rocksteady, and dub. I do not know that I would have LPs by Linton Kwesi Johnston, Lee Perry, King Tubby, Augustus Pablo, Dillinger, Culture, Desmond Dekker, Skatalites, Ethiopians, Toots and the Maytals, Prince Buster, Yabby You, U Roy, Scientist...the list goes on, if it was not for the introduction to these genres from the 70s revival.

However, I do think that Two Tone had its own unique sound which was heavily influenced by punk. And even then I think the Beat, Selecter, Specials and Madness did not restrict themselves to ska with subsequent releases after their first LPs.




That's my story too Harry Cool


I think that's the story for a lot of us. 2 Tone was starting point and from there we worked backwards into the wonderful world of reggae.

LKJ's radio series, 'From Mento to Lovers Rock', first broadcast in 1982, was a life changer for me.
_________________
Richard Eddington is innocent.

http://2-tone.info/
PostPosted:
Fri May 30, 2014 11:30 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Sugarman
Too Hot


Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 6062
Location: Sun Valley

Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojan wrote:
Danbert wrote:
HarryJ185 wrote:
The bands themselves were influenced by / grew up listening to ska, and all the bands did cover original ska songs. Without ska influences, they would not have sounded the way they did. I started listening to Two Tone and then starting with 20 Reggae classics, delved into the original artists and soon expanded my collection to include ska, reggae, rocksteady, and dub. I do not know that I would have LPs by Linton Kwesi Johnston, Lee Perry, King Tubby, Augustus Pablo, Dillinger, Culture, Desmond Dekker, Skatalites, Ethiopians, Toots and the Maytals, Prince Buster, Yabby You, U Roy, Scientist...the list goes on, if it was not for the introduction to these genres from the 70s revival.

However, I do think that Two Tone had its own unique sound which was heavily influenced by punk. And even then I think the Beat, Selecter, Specials and Madness did not restrict themselves to ska with subsequent releases after their first LPs.




That's my story too Harry Cool


I think that's the story for a lot of us. 2 Tone was starting point and from there we worked backwards into the wonderful world of reggae.

LKJ's radio series, 'From Mento to Lovers Rock', first broadcast in 1982, was a life changer for me.


Roots, Rockers and Rude Boys was another great Documentary broadcast on BBC and RTE Radio in the early 80's Smile
_________________
I'm having bags of fun
PostPosted:
Fri May 30, 2014 12:00 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
PollyTheWasp
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 54

Post subject: Reply with quote

"From Mento To Lovers Rock" was awesome. I still play it when walking my dog. Some of the mento clips are wonderful, and lots of reminders of bits of reggae that get forgotten about.
PostPosted:
Fri May 30, 2014 12:27 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
wally
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 167
Location: Hondarribia

Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Roots, Rockers and Rude Boys was another great Documentary broadcast on BBC and RTE Radio in the early 80's Smile


That was one episode of 'From Punk to Present' if I recall, a fantastic series, which I'd love to hear again... anyone got a copy by any chance??? Preferably of the John Peel version, but The B.P. Fallon one would more than suffice too...
_________________
http://www.maribop.com
http://www.2-tone.info
PostPosted:
Fri May 30, 2014 9:40 pm
Top of PageView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
poshfangaz
Ska Face
Ska Face


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 229

Post subject: Reply with quote

Without the punk influence 2-Tone would've been as flat as pretty much every Ska band since.
PostPosted:
Sat May 31, 2014 12:31 am
Top of PageView user's profileSend private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT
Post new topic Reply to topic
TheSpecials2.com Forum Index » General Music Goto page 1, 2  Next 

Jump to:  
Key
  You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Community powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group :: Theme & Graphics by Daz