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Imani
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Julia Hartley-Brewer meets author, Douglas Murray in the second episode of her new series, Inside the News. The two discuss his new book, The Madness Of Crowds: Gender, Race and Identity.

Douglas Murray examines the twenty-first century's most divisive issues: sexuality, gender, technology and race. He reveals the astonishing new culture wars playing out in our workplaces, universities, schools and homes in the names of social justice, identity politics and 'intersectionality'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTviaHRguVU

I saw the interview earlier this week and thought it was an honest but balanced discussion.

It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth.

No-one would say that things are perfect but I've felt over the past decade that certain developments are sending things backwards. Race and gender issues in particular are being used as political footballs that are creating division and tensions that were either being resolved, or that wasn't even there in the first place. This is 2019 and things aren't always as 'black and white' as before.

As long as any kind of violence isn't being advocated, and as long as there's no gratuitous insulting/lack of respect, I'd like a society where people are able to discuss these topics without feeling they have to fall in line with the prevailing views out of fear, without the fear of being called 'racist', 'homophobic' etc etc (insert your pet '-ism'). This only serves to close down the communication necessary to help people understand these issues and get along.
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:04 pm
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bombscare79
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never heard the word balanced and Julia Hartley Brewer in the same sentence, interesting but im never going to listen to anything she is involved in. ........many other things have changed since the 1970's and 80's e.g. global warming has made homelessness under a Tory government just that little bit more bearable in the middle of winter and there is very little left to privatise.
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:19 pm
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Imani
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bombscare79 wrote:
never heard the word balanced and Julia Hartley Brewer in the same sentence, interesting but im never going to listen to anything she is involved in. ........many other things have changed since the 1970's and 80's e.g. global warming has made homelessness under a Tory government just that little bit more bearable in the middle of winter and there is very little left to privatise.


I actually knew nothing about either speaker besides a review of the author's book I saw in the Guardian, that just denounced him as a right-wing apologist. I decided to listen for myself and didn't see that at all.

Regardless of whether I agreed with Murray or Brewer or not, I don't see how it's possible to form a view on someone or a subject without my having looked into the content of their message first. That would be as prejudiced and bigoted as the people I'd be accusing of being prejudice and bigoted.

If it's wrong to believe there's no need to constantly play the victim, or look for the latest bigot (sometimes an imaginary one), or to use that victim status to gain social and sometimes economic advantage, and that it's actually not empowering to encourage someone to do so, then file me also under the tag marked 'Imbalanced' with pleasure. Because that was what I got from the discussion. So much for Guardian reviews.

As for the list of wrongs you listed, I could provide one just as lengthy for 'the opposition', to somehow 'prove' that things haven't moved forward. But I've never voted, I don't intend to, I don't affiliate myself with either wing, so there's no need. Also, the discussion I posted isn't about 'The Tories'.
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:48 pm
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bombscare79
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I cant comment on Douglas Murray as i know absolutely nothing. Ive heard JHB many times and i now switch off immediately. The rest of your response beggars belief and i wont comment any further or read the post as i dont want to be offensive.
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:03 pm
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Trojan
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Ah.. Julia Hartley-Brewer. The 'journalist' who thought using a photograph of the devastation caused by the Omagh Bomb to attack Jeremy Corbyn would be seen as 'satire'.

She also had an invite withdrawn to address the Royal College of GPs because of her racist views.

" GP Survival founder Dr Alan Woodall set up a petition deeming Ms Hartley-Brewer’s inclusion at the RCGP event as an ‘insult to the thousands of international doctors who have come to work as GPs in the NHS’.

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/all-news/rcgp-withdraws-invitation-for-julia-hartley-brewer-to-speak-at-conference/20038784.article
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:50 pm
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Imani
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This isn't a 'Tory vs Labour' issue. Neither party is even mentioned during the interview. Feel free to discuss those parties ON ANOTHER THREAD, it's of no relevance to this topic. Especially if you've decided you don't want to hear anything said that is in disagreement with your views - shock horror.

In recent years I've seen the word 'racist' thrown around so indiscriminately, usually for innocuous reasons that actually makes a mockery of genuine racist behaviour. Disappointingly for some, there are black journalists saying much the same, and readers like myself who are in agreement with the points advanced by Brewer and Murray in the interview. This makes the label 'racist' a bit more tenuous, if not completely redundant.

So you'll have to excuse me for being in the habit of checking things out for myself, rather than letting some journalist or social media troll's weak accusations of 'racism' or any other '-ism' decide who to like or dislike.

Because it seems to me that if there's lots of people 'no-platforming' and censoring the free speech of anyone whose views they happen to disagree with, this is a slippery slope. It's through communication that things are worked out, not by this pathetic 'no-platforming' which only deepens the fault lines. Not only that, it's an approach that ends up nurturing the kind of extremism that it's supposed to be getting rid of. If people haven't worked that one out, then take a look at history and perhaps you'll think again.

I'll leave it here.
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:58 pm
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wally
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Please don't leave it there Imani!!

it's been a breath of fresh air to read your posts. I've been feeling the very same for the last few years and can absolutely recommend reading and listening to anything and everything Douglas Murray has to say (I have his book here beside me). He's always honest, articulate and unafraid of the politically correct lynch mob. The left has become hysterical and intolerant of any contrary opinion, we're too busy polishing our halos to bother to listen to someone who may once have uttered something daft or innapropriate. If we are honestly to have meaningful discussion about important issues, dismissing people out of hand for something they once said or did or is petulant and vacuous. What someone has to say about the situation at hand is the important thing.

You should check out Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris too, all are prepared to honestly discuss the taboo and controversial subjects that we find ourselves hiding from these days.
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Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:57 pm
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Trojan
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It still does not take away from the fact that Julia Hartley Brewer is monumental arsehole.
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Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:02 pm
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wally
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Sounds like you've got the hots for her....
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Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:24 pm
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Trojan
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wally wrote:
Sounds like you've got the hots for her....


I'm fed up not hard up.....
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Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:27 pm
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bombscare79
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JHB has been linked to far right politics and Douglas Murray is a neo conservative.
As regards this -
“If it's wrong to believe there's no need to constantly play the victim, or look for the latest bigot (sometimes an imaginary one), or to use that victim status to gain social and sometimes economic advantage, and that it's actually not empowering to encourage someone to do so, then file me also under the tag marked 'Imbalanced' with pleasure. Because that was what I got from the discussion. So much for Guardian reviews.”
This is a typical ultra right wing view point i.e. there’s not really such a thing as racism or bigotry its just people being over sensitive or just whinging. This is usually the view of people who have never been a victim and generally don’t want those who could claim racism, sexism or bigotry to gain social or economic advantage. “This makes the label 'racist' a bit more tenuous, if not completely redundant”...................................................... Fuck me- seriously- what gives you or anyone else the right to decide if someone has been a victim and racist is redundant- priceless.
“As for the list of wrongs you listed, I could provide one just as lengthy for 'the opposition', to somehow 'prove' that things haven't moved forward. But I've never voted, I don't intend to, I don't affiliate myself with either wing, so there's no need. Also, the discussion I posted isn't about 'The Tories'.”..........”This isn't a 'Tory vs Labour' issue” .........Again this is a typical ultra right wing response i.e. don’t comment on the content of the message just apportion blame to the opposition. This is absolutely a Tory VS labour issue. Why would you post such ultra right wing views on a Specials Fansite. Jesus

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Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 pm
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wally
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Hi bombscare, could you explain to me the difference between someone with conservative views and "ultra right wing" views, and for that matter the difference between someone with liberal views and someone with "ultra left wing" views? Have you considered the possibilty that the prejudice lies with you?
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Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:16 am
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Imani
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wally wrote:
Please don't leave it there Imani!!

it's been a breath of fresh air to read your posts. I've been feeling the very same for the last few years and can absolutely recommend reading and listening to anything and everything Douglas Murray has to say (I have his book here beside me). He's always honest, articulate and unafraid of the politically correct lynch mob. The left has become hysterical and intolerant of any contrary opinion, we're too busy polishing our halos to bother to listen to someone who may once have uttered something daft or innapropriate. If we are honestly to have meaningful discussion about important issues, dismissing people out of hand for something they once said or did or is petulant and vacuous. What someone has to say about the situation at hand is the important thing.

You should check out Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris too, all are prepared to honestly discuss the taboo and controversial subjects that we find ourselves hiding from these days.


Hi Wally, cheers for your post which I've just read, much belatedly. In complete agreement with you. I'll come back to the topic later.
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:15 am
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Imani
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If someone has what I consider to be valuable ideas, I honestly don't care who they vote for or represent. This is the prime reason why I can't affiliate with any party because loyalty to a wing is ultimately placed above recognising valuable ideas that aren't in the party's remit or tradition. They aren't even given a hearing when they're perceived to be from the opposite side.

Another point raised: The politics of the audience doesn't always mirror that of the artist, even if the artist is overtly political. Nor does it have to; you can still love the music, it's a bonus if you're on side with the message. There's no contradiction, it's about individuality. People usually start off mimicking the views of their heroes to the absolute letter, particularly when they're young - but they can also grow and develop their own perspective from their own life experience.

(I mean, in 2019 Terry had a couple of public digs at Mr Corbyn and yet quite a few Specials fans support the Labour party. Another example of shades of grey and things not being cut and dry as some would like them to be.)

Of course, there's also the fact that the late 1970s and 2020 are VERY different from each other. I understand that many people's politics are defined by the time period that gave birth to 2 Tone, but I wasn't even out of my teens when I first heard those songs which are informed by how life was BACK THEN. If I still viewed the world through the eyes of that teenager - the world as it was 40+ years ago - then I'd never begin to make sense of how it is today.
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:35 pm
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Harry
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Corbyn, Abbot, McDonnell, Skinner, Hopkins, and Mactaggart were the only Labour MPs who saw the 2014 Immigration Act (which unfairly targeted the Windrush generation and led to several deaths) as being racist - they were the only Labour MPs who voted against it.
It was sad when Terry slagged off Abbot and Corbyn in Boris Johnson's old mag The Spectator. Just like it was a low point when Terry and Co collaborated with Murdoch's Sunday Times.
I like the famous Malcolm X quote - I'm for the truth whoever tells it.
I think Malcolm had valuable ideas - I can't say the same for people like Jordan Peterson
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Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:57 am
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wally
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Nice quote from Malcolm X, I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a big fan of Jordan Peterson. I find him interesting, honest and articulate. I'd be interested to hear what you find objectionable about him Harry.
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Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:17 am
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Corbyn, Abbot, McDonnell, Skinner, Hopkins, and Mactaggart were the only Labour MPs who saw the 2014 Immigration Act (which unfairly targeted the Windrush generation and led to several deaths) as being racist - they were the only Labour MPs who voted against it.
It was sad when Terry slagged off Abbot and Corbyn in Boris Johnson's old mag The Spectator. Just like it was a low point when Terry and Co collaborated with Murdoch's Sunday Times.
I like the famous Malcolm X quote - I'm for the truth whoever tells it.
I think Malcolm had valuable ideas - I can't say the same for people like Jordan Peterson


It's OK not to agree or find value. My point is I wouldn't 'no-platform' anyone based upon the protests of a loud minority of people that when pressed, often aren't even familiar with the object of their protests. At the very least I'd listen first, and THEN make my mind up.

It's nice when an artist's politics reflect our own but it's not something I look for now. It's a bonus, nothing more.
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Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm
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Harry
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[quote="Imani"]If someone has what I consider to be valuable ideas, I honestly don't care who they vote for or represent. This is the prime reason why I can't affiliate with any party because loyalty to a wing is ultimately placed above recognising valuable ideas that aren't in the party's remit or tradition. They aren't even given a hearing when they're perceived to be from the opposite side."
I think everyone agrees with the first line. Adolph Hitler was one of the first people to make a link between smoking and lung cancer - when you're right, you're right. It doesn't mean you have to become a paid up member of his party.
But the second bit you say doesn't make a lot of sense. Clearly the Labour party is a broad church. I can't think of an example of "someone who isn't given a fair hearing" surely a M.P.s voting record speaks for it self. Blair wanted to "liberate Iraq" and told us we were about to be attacked - completely the opposite view of Mcdonel, Abbot and Corbyn - yet all four are in the same party. They all liked Sure Start, they all wanted peace talks with Irish politicians, they don't want the US involved in the NHS and so on and so on.
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:24 am
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Imani
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[quote="Harry"]
Imani wrote:
If someone has what I consider to be valuable ideas, I honestly don't care who they vote for or represent. This is the prime reason why I can't affiliate with any party because loyalty to a wing is ultimately placed above recognising valuable ideas that aren't in the party's remit or tradition. They aren't even given a hearing when they're perceived to be from the opposite side."
I think everyone agrees with the first line. Adolph Hitler was one of the first people to make a link between smoking and lung cancer - when you're right, you're right. It doesn't mean you have to become a paid up member of his party.
But the second bit you say doesn't make a lot of sense. Clearly the Labour party is a broad church. I can't think of an example of "someone who isn't given a fair hearing" surely a M.P.s voting record speaks for it self. Blair wanted to "liberate Iraq" and told us we were about to be attacked - completely the opposite view of Mcdonel, Abbot and Corbyn - yet all four are in the same party. They all liked Sure Start, they all wanted peace talks with Irish politicians, they don't want the US involved in the NHS and so on and so on.


Keeping this in context of the original post on the thread, as the responses to it mostly haven't really dealt with the actual interview: The respective policies of each party and a general 'Tory v Labour debate' aren't the subject matter of the conversation. It might be a start to actually discuss the content of the interview.
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Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:19 pm
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Harry
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Ok, I only managed to watch the first ten minutes as I don't find what they are saying very interesting. Philosophers like Bertram Russell were always turning over possibilities, looking at things from all angles, trying to be fair, questioning their own beliefs and what they held dear. So different from the Jordan Peterson "them and us" stuff we get today.
On You tube there is a conversation between David Frost and Enoch Powell. Powell says he received a letter from an elderly white woman saying black people put shit through her letterbox but she doesn't want to go to the police as she's worried they'll say she is "a racialist." Frost says if it's true it's a rare incident but Powell refuses to agree and says it's happening all over the country. Thousands of people agreed with Enoch. Recently in the publication London Review of Books they revealed that research was carried out and the letter Enoch received was from someone who'd heard a story about shit being put through their letterbox (it hadn't happened to them personally). Enoch had assumed it was a black person who did it, when the police investigated, it turned out it was a white person who put shit through another white person's letterbox. The problem is Enoch believed it was a black person and so in his own head he wasn't lying and so therefore (because he believed what he was saying) what he said sounded plausible (to some). Remember also that 1) Powell was a poet with a brilliant vocabulary. 2) He was smartly dressed and had been in the army 3) He could speak many, many languages and was something of a leading authority on the Ancient Greeks. So the important thing to remember is although he believed what he was saying, and thousands of people believed what he was saying, the reality is - he was talking bullshit. Even if ten million people had agreed with Enoch it still wouldn't make it, "the truth".
It's ironic that in the You Tube clip the conversation you say that it is balanced. If it really were balanced you'd have two people with opposing views, speaking about their experiences. At times it was unintentionally comic, I was reminded of the Python sketch about Four Yorkshire men talking about how young people today have it easy, it also brings to mind Stewart Lee's "It's Political Correctness gone mad" routine.
In an unnamed magazine, the male posh twit says that ONE writer claims that in his opinion a certain Black person or Gay person shouldn't be considered Black/Gay because they don't act the way that journalist thinks they should. They also talk about how "some people" apparently say that Germaine Greer is no longer a feminist because of her comments made about how "Trans woman will never really know what it's like to be a woman because they've never had a smelly vagina". Greer was also blunt and provocative about her views on the "Me Too" movement. But what he's doing is misleading people into saying a big change has happened and that we have to wake up etc. He's basically being Enoch Powell. It's true that some women have gone off Greer. And it's true a handful say she should be banned/sacked etc. However, this is how it has always been. The argument, like Enoch's is based on the silly notion that you can point to a few examples and just pretend that that's what everyone thinks. When Thatcher became P.M. it would have been easy to find some women who hated her 100 %, some who hated her but loved the fact she got into a war with Argentina, some women who hated her but felt sad when she lost her job, some who loved everything about her, some who'd say she had to become a man in order to make it a man's world, and some women who'd say Thatcher was never a real woman etc etc. It would be just as easy to argue the other way and say, Germaine Greer has always been unpopular with most women but now she's a hero! Or say, "all women love Thatcher". What I find depressing is the way the posh male twit makes all these "I'd really like to talk to young people" comments. It should be the other way round. He needs to talk less and listen more. I work with 5 trans women. They are all completely different from each other. It's embarrassing people think all Trans people are criminal men who want to attack women in toilets. Just as it's embarrassing that so many people were willing to believe black people put shit through all ladies letterboxes and if you speak up you'll be labelled "a racialist"
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