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Imani
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As you only heard a bit, I won't say too much in response. I completely disagree with the Powell comparison; also class and affluence has nothing to do with it (i.e 'posh twits). Imagine if those speakers referred to less affluent people in similar terms?!
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:45 pm
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Harry
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But why do you disagree with the Powell comparison I made? Explain why I'm wrong to make the comparison between someone in the past lying that you can't report a person of colour breaking the law without being called a racist to someone in the present lying that you can't talk about trans people without being transphobic? (or "thrown in a ditch") How are they different?
What's wrong with calling Douglas Murray a posh twit? (ok, he knows a lot about Oscar Wilde, in the same way Powell knew a lot about the ancient Romans and Greeks). He writes dull as dishwater articles in for the Torygraph and The Spectator about how Muslims are like the Nazis. Why on earth do you his describe his arguments as "balanced". And you say, "Imagine if those speakers referred to less affluent people in similar terms?!" Don't you get it he is picking on minorities who aren't in a position to fight back (they are not invited on the show to give their side of the story). You seem to be in massive denial.
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Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:34 pm
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" Massive denial" - I cant decide between massive denial, complete inability to grasp the crux of the message in the discussion or this post started as a wind up - a bit of fun. I am edging towards wind up though as im struggling to believe someone could have such massive denial or inability. I have really enjoyed reading your replies Harry . Thanks
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wally
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I watched the interview again and it's clear to anyone willing to listen without prejudice that neither Murray nor Hartley-Brewer are in any way racist. It seems like a ridiculous point to have to make but these days - and especially if you're not a flag waving leftie - you have to prove you're not racist, guilty until proven innocent. Their conversation is balanced and their points are reasonable and well made. It's a conversation not a debate.

I share your concerns about all this woke business Imani, Murray reckons it's dangerous but well-intentioned over-correcting and I think he's right.

I have been trying to find some good debates or conversations on these issues and it's virtually impossible to find anyone from the left who doesn't resort to politicising everything. But I did come across the (anti-woke) writer and comedian Andrew Doyle. He created the twitter satire character Titania McGrath and comes across very well in interviews. The link below is from Triggernometry - a video interview series that itself has some great interviews also worth a listen.

https://youtu.be/emHnhgAyXT8
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Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:03 pm
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Douglas Murray and George Orwell both had good educations and they both became writers but they went about things in different ways. When Orwell wrote, Down and Out in London and Paris,he did research. He slept in London's worse doss houses and he reported back on what it was like. His opinions were informed by his experiences but more importantly, Orwell challenged his own opinions and feelings, he was always turning over the possibilities, looking at things from different sides. Although Orwell was a Socialist he wrote Animal Farm (which as you probably know) is how because people are all flawed, communism will never work.
If Orwell were alive today, if he had concerns about Islam he would do his homework. He would learn a new language, read about their prohet, travel to other countries, find people who disagreed with him - learn from them. When Murray writes about Islam he does he go about things in the same way as Orwell?
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:57 am
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wally
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Yes, Murray has travelled extensively and reported from many countries across the world. Has he done exactly as Orwell did? No, but he is not Orwell. Nobody has done as Orwell did except Orwell. I think you are being unfair. You're suggestion is that he doesn't know what he is talking about, but what are you basing this assumption on? His accent? His conservatism?

One of the best books I've read in the last few years was Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four. "To meet the ideological requirements of English Socialism (Ingsoc) in Oceania, the ruling Party created Newspeak, a controlled language of heavily-restricted grammar and vocabulary, meant to limit the freedom of thought—personal identity, self-expression, free will—that threatens the ideology of the régime of Big Brother and the Party, who have criminalised such concepts into thought-crime, as contradictions of Ingsoc orthodoxy."

Now, what does that sound like...
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:21 am
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Harry
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wally wrote:
Yes, Murray has travelled extensively and reported from many countries across the world. Has he done exactly as Orwell did? No, but he is not Orwell. Nobody has done as Orwell did except Orwell. I think you are being unfair. You're suggestion is that he doesn't know what he is talking about, but what are you basing this assumption on? His accent? His conservatism?

One of the best books I've read in the last few years was Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four. "To meet the ideological requirements of English Socialism (Ingsoc) in Oceania, the ruling Party created Newspeak, a controlled language of heavily-restricted grammar and vocabulary, meant to limit the freedom of thought—personal identity, self-expression, free will—that threatens the ideology of the régime of Big Brother and the Party, who have criminalised such concepts into thought-crime, as contradictions of Ingsoc orthodoxy."

Now, what does that sound like...

Good come back. I'm glad you like Orwell.
For 25 years I've worked in a book shop with a large culture and ideas section. The best part of my job is enthusing and writing recommendations about the books we stock.
I love the novels of Anthony Powell and the poetry of Philip Larkin both of whom were clearly right wing and sadly Powell was a snob and Larkin was a racist - but they were great writers. I also love london review of books and The Oldie that have articles by people like Gyles Brandreth who is a loveable posh twit.
a large part of the reason the U.K. is leaving the E.U is down to Nigel and Boris. Nigel says we shouldn't let Romanians into our country as they'll give people aids, boris is saying black people have less intelligence than white people etc etc and it gets them votes and that makes me sad. They get away with everything. whereas if corbyn asks for clarification of why a mural is taken down he is literally compared to Hitler. The BBC/murdoch press attack the opposition rather than those in power.
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:08 am
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Imani
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wally wrote:
I watched the interview again and it's clear to anyone willing to listen without prejudice that neither Murray nor Hartley-Brewer are in any way racist. It seems like a ridiculous point to have to make but these days - and especially if you're not a flag waving leftie - you have to prove you're not racist, guilty until proven innocent. Their conversation is balanced and their points are reasonable and well made. It's a conversation not a debate.

I share your concerns about all this woke business Imani, Murray reckons it's dangerous but well-intentioned over-correcting and I think he's right.

I have been trying to find some good debates or conversations on these issues and it's virtually impossible to find anyone from the left who doesn't resort to politicising everything. But I did come across the (anti-woke) writer and comedian Andrew Doyle. He created the twitter satire character Titania McGrath and comes across very well in interviews. The link below is from Triggernometry - a video interview series that itself has some great interviews also worth a listen.

https://youtu.be/emHnhgAyXT8


Cheers for the vid, Wally. I began watching it and took note of something Andrew Doyle observed about banning, censorship and hate speech: It often unwittingly strengthens the support for the banned ideas. Not that everyone should be given carte blanche, obviously. Though I've heard a few different public figures speak critically about 'woke culture', including Murray, and I wouldn't put what they're saying in the realm of 'hate speech'.

'Woke' tends to over-compensate and in doing so, often gets it wrong. The problem is, a lot of its proponents, who are often students or that age bracket, are educated to see certain groups as victims, even when not all members of the group don't see themselves as such.


Last edited by Imani on Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:08 pm
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wally
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Interesting Harry, I hadn't heard of Powell or Larkin before, I'll keep an eye out for them. I found an article on Spiked talking about how Clive James last book "Somewhere Becoming Rain" was a homage to Larkin's poetry.

"Larkin brought a spiritual beauty to his work, an intense love of what this life is – ‘the million-petalled flower of being here’, as he put it."

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/07/for-the-love-of-larkin/
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:11 pm
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Douglas Murray and George Orwell both had good educations and they both became writers but they went about things in different ways. When Orwell wrote, Down and Out in London and Paris,he did research. He slept in London's worse doss houses and he reported back on what it was like. His opinions were informed by his experiences but more importantly, Orwell challenged his own opinions and feelings, he was always turning over the possibilities, looking at things from different sides. Although Orwell was a Socialist he wrote Animal Farm (which as you probably know) is how because people are all flawed, communism will never work.
If Orwell were alive today, if he had concerns about Islam he would do his homework. He would learn a new language, read about their prohet, travel to other countries, find people who disagreed with him - learn from them. When Murray writes about Islam he does he go about things in the same way as Orwell?


Harry, not everyone who's critical of woke culture is from the same social and educational background as a Douglas Murray. It's a misconception. I don't fall into that category, and neither do the people I know whom I discuss these issues with.

This is one reason why I disagree with the Powell comparison. Simply because I'm not seeing people listen to speakers who debunk woke culture THEN going out and committing anti-social acts (or writing fictional accounts of them). The minority of idiots that are doing such things can't be held as representative of an entire group - a diverse group at that.
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Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:20 pm
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Room 101 awaits...

Official police guidance on recording hate incidents against transgender people imposes a “substantial chilling effect” on freedom of expression, the high court has been told by lawyers representing a former officer.

Harry Miller, who served with Humberside police, was contacted by the force this year after a complaint from a member of the public about allegedly transphobic comments he made on his Twitter account @HarryTheOwl.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/20/police-transgender-rules-breach-right-to-free-speech-court-told
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Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:23 am
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Harry
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Imani wrote:
Harry wrote:
Douglas Murray and George Orwell both had good educations and they both became writers but they went about things in different ways. When Orwell wrote, Down and Out in London and Paris,he did research. He slept in London's worse doss houses and he reported back on what it was like. His opinions were informed by his experiences but more importantly, Orwell challenged his own opinions and feelings, he was always turning over the possibilities, looking at things from different sides. Although Orwell was a Socialist he wrote Animal Farm (which as you probably know) is how because people are all flawed, communism will never work.
If Orwell were alive today, if he had concerns about Islam he would do his homework. He would learn a new language, read about their prohet, travel to other countries, find people who disagreed with him - learn from them. When Murray writes about Islam he does he go about things in the same way as Orwell?


Harry, not everyone who's critical of woke culture is from the same social and educational background as a Douglas Murray. It's a misconception. I don't fall into that category, and neither do the people I know whom I discuss these issues with.

This is one reason why I disagree with the Powell comparison. Simply because I'm not seeing people listen to speakers who debunk woke culture THEN going out and committing anti-social acts (or writing fictional accounts of them). The minority of idiots that are doing such things can't be held as representative of an entire group - a diverse group at that.


I am not saying Murray is a racist. I am not saying you are a racist. I am not saying everyone who is critical of woke culture is from the same social background as Murray. I am not saying every single trans person is above the law. Sorry for confusion.
I am not a black lesbian feminist mother who is dying of cancer, but when I read a book by Audre Lord (who is all those things) it's of interest to me and I think, I wish more people knew about Audre Lord. In the same way, the TV film, Naked Civil Servant (staring John Hurt) is about a man who identifies as being "a pansy". He wants to wear make-up and parade around the streets of Pimlico like a work of art but he's not interested in having a civil partnership or watching Gay Time TV etc. I like the fact that when people like that share their experiences it gives us all food for thought- I think it helps us all see a bigger picture. What I like about Jordan Peterson is that he is a fan of Freud, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Carl Jung and he knows that they are the real deal. They are great thinkers. Maybe people who like him will go off and discover the work of his heroes. Bertrand Russell once quipped, "the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt". In my opinion there are too many Toby Youngs and not enough Betrand Russells. I was thinking of Wally's comment that there is only one George Orwell - I agree on one level but I also see people out there (comedians, artists, film makers) who seem a lot more Orwell than someone like Mr Murray. Peterson and Murray tell people what they want to hear. I wish they had the guts to share the innermost feelings and doubts and did it in a way that was either funny or moving
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Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:04 am
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Harry
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wally wrote:
Interesting Harry, I hadn't heard of Powell or Larkin before, I'll keep an eye out for them. I found an article on Spiked talking about how Clive James last book "Somewhere Becoming Rain" was a homage to Larkin's poetry.

"Larkin brought a spiritual beauty to his work, an intense love of what this life is – ‘the million-petalled flower of being here’, as he put it."

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/07/for-the-love-of-larkin/


There was a TV version of Anthony Powell's Dance to the Music of Time about 10 years ago. It's a river novel. An English version of marcel proust's in search of lost time
Philip Larkin's best know poem is called, This Be The Verse.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse
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Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:21 am
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Imani
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'Peterson and Murray tell people what they want to hear. I wish they had the guts to share the innermost feelings and doubts and did it in a way that was either funny or moving.'

Ironically in the climate of recent years, nothing has really escaped the disapproval of woke, especially humour and satire of all things. It can even get people reported to the police. Though there is now a lot of comedy online that sends up woke.

No-one wants people to be picked upon because of their race, gender or sexuality, and if we're talking Britain, by and large there's far more acceptance in those areas. It's not perfect but I defy anyone who's old enough to recall the 1970s for example, to disagree. I'm sure some of the young people who've embraced the woke ideas are probably just too young to appreciate this, which is the fault of some older academics who are telling them the contrary. Another factor is that 'woke activists' are looking at the situation in USA, where there's far more polarity and segregation, and superimposing it on Britain which has its own distinct history, social dynamics etc.

Speaking of academics, all the stuff that's called 'PC' or 'woke' was fairly invisible in popular culture until the past couple of decades, when it gradually seeped in via the influence of social media, and a lot of the content has emanated from the USA. Before that, it was the domain of a relative few university professors.

At the turn of the millenium I was doing a teachers' course at uni. I vividly recall attending a lecture along with about 150 other students, on the topic of race awareness or something similarly titled. The speaker was a middle-aged, well-spoken white woman. As part of her introduction she said she wasn't really 'qualified' to deliver this talk because of her ethnicity and class. She went on to say 'In giving this talk, I apologise for being white.'

It was well intended but clumsily so. There was no need for the lecturer to apologise. Guilt ought to be based upon actions, not on who you are or the demographic you belong to. But a lot of what people call 'being woke' does this, which is why there's been this reaction against it.
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Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:35 am
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wally
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Harry, Dance to the Music of Time is on youtube, all 4 films so I'll check that out cheers. I like Larkin's poem, albeit fairly bleak. In general I find poetry hard going, so these short ones are easier to digest, I like this one too, The Mower:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48423/the-mower-56d229a740294

Imani, I know we're wandering off the point of this thread, sorry about that. I disagree with Harry on Murray and Peterson. Whatever they may lack it's not guts. Both are forthright in standing by their opinions in the face of often vitriolic condemnation.

The attitude of that speaker at the lecture you mentioned has become all too common unfortunately. It's absurd if you really think about it. Absolute identity politics. The idea that for example two black people are not individuals but two people with the same identity and world-view. It's really an insult to people to bracket them as, white, black, gay, trans... whatever. It's a denial of everyone's individuality.

You're all individuals!
Yes, we're all individuals!

I'm not.
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Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:01 am
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Imani
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wally wrote:
Harry, Dance to the Music of Time is on youtube, all 4 films so I'll check that out cheers. I like Larkin's poem, albeit fairly bleak. In general I find poetry hard going, so these short ones are easier to digest, I like this one too, The Mower:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48423/the-mower-56d229a740294

Imani, I know we're wandering off the point of this thread, sorry about that. I disagree with Harry on Murray and Peterson. Whatever they may lack it's not guts. Both are forthright in standing by their opinions in the face of often vitriolic condemnation.

The attitude of that speaker at the lecture you mentioned has become all too common unfortunately. It's absurd if you really think about it. Absolute identity politics. The idea that for example two black people are not individuals but two people with the same identity and world-view. It's really an insult to people to bracket them as, white, black, gay, trans... whatever. It's a denial of everyone's individuality.

You're all individuals!
Yes, we're all individuals!

I'm not.


Yes, it's a typical scenario. That 'one size fits all' approach doesn't work and it can be dangerous. It may have been appropriate in another era but even then, only generalisations can be made.

The Murray/Brewer discussion also addresses 'cultural appropriation'. So much popular music from the 20th century onward at least, has come about through cultures influencing each other, not least the band on whose forum we're having this discussion! If Adam Ant was introducing his Wild Frontier image today, he would have to face 'trial by Twitter/exile from Instagram', probably found guilty of 'appropriation', sentenced to 200 hours community service, all of his work removed from Spotify, then hung, drawn and quartered for good measure. And that's just for starters. Laughing
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Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:12 am
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Jonathan Pie’s On Cultural Appropriation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq74bZqbOqA
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Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:28 pm
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Imani wrote:
If Adam Ant was introducing his Wild Frontier image today, he would have to face 'trial by Twitter/exile from Instagram', probably found guilty of 'appropriation', sentenced to 200 hours community service, all of his work removed from Spotify, then hung, drawn and quartered for good measure. And that's just for starters. Laughing


Adam Ant is still releasing albums and doing sell out tours. He's often a guest on shows like Lose Women and has made documentaries about his mental health problems.
You went to a lecture an the person felt it necessary to acknowledge she was white. It's not a big deal is it?
But you talk as though you have to walk on egg shells or you'll be imprisoned/punished, and Wally thinks his life is like that of Winston Smith in 1985.
Ok, if I were to stand outside a SCOPE charity shop all day chanting, "It's not SCOPE it's a SPASTIC society" at the top of my voice and stamping my foot. Yes, eventually someone would call the police or social services. But that wouldn't make me a hero of the people.
There is NOTHING brave involved in what someone like Jordan is doing. He's like an astrologer telling people that their particular sign is often misunderstood because they're so sensitive and special. Freud would say Peterson is talking to the latent homosexual in his male followers. He's being a Daddy figure telling them to tidy their room etc. Carl Jung would say Peterson is envious of Trans people - the only logical explanation for his protests is that he has unresolved issues about his sexuality. I notice he has anxiety problems and is on medication. Maybe one day he will open up and say what's really troubling him.
The other thing I find baffling is the way you seem so unaware about who is in power and what they are doing to the most vulnerable in society
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Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:03 pm
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Imani wrote:
If Adam Ant was introducing his Wild Frontier image today, he would have to face 'trial by Twitter/exile from Instagram', probably found guilty of 'appropriation', sentenced to 200 hours community service, all of his work removed from Spotify, then hung, drawn and quartered for good measure. And that's just for starters. Laughing


Adam Ant is still releasing albums and doing sell out tours. He's often a guest on shows like Lose Women and has made documentaries about his mental health problems.
You went to a lecture an the person felt it necessary to acknowledge she was white. It's not a big deal is it?
But you talk as though you have to walk on egg shells or you'll be imprisoned/punished, and Wally thinks his life is like that of Winston Smith in 1985.
Ok, if I were to stand outside a SCOPE charity shop all day chanting, "It's not SCOPE it's a SPASTIC society" at the top of my voice and stamping my foot. Yes, eventually someone would call the police or social services. But that wouldn't make me a hero of the people.
There is NOTHING brave involved in what someone like Jordan is doing. He's like an astrologer telling people that their particular sign is often misunderstood because they're so sensitive and special. Freud would say Peterson is talking to the latent homosexual in his male followers. He's being a Daddy figure telling them to tidy their room etc. Carl Jung would say Peterson is envious of Trans people - the only logical explanation for his protests is that he has unresolved issues about his sexuality. I notice he has anxiety problems and is on medication. Maybe one day he will open up and say what's really troubling him.
The other thing I find baffling is the way you seem so unaware about who is in power and what they are doing to the most vulnerable in society


The lecturer acknowledging their lack of first-hand experience of the subject she was dealing with wasn't a big deal. It was the fact that they felt they needed to 'APOLOGISE for being white' - and those were the exact words used - which wasn't necessary. A person should only feel the need to say sorry when they're known to have done something that warrants it, not out of guilt by 'association', which is what was going on there. I think it's wrong because such a person ends up having a distorted view.

I'll come to the rest of the post tomorrow, or when I've had time to check out the link you've posted. But until then: Do you actually believe people would go out and protest about Scope, and use the lines from a sitcom, which was a parody in the first place?! I said at the very start of the thread that to critique woke culture isn't about wanting the freedom to make gratuitous insults... but either you're being highly ironic and I've missed it, or you didn't see that initial post.
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Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:38 pm
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Adam Ant is still touring and releasing music unabated because fortunately his audience hasn't been infected by fictional ideas about being offensive. Now, if he was a relative newbie breaking into the charts, he might get a less welcome reception, at least from those folks on social media who seize upon any opportunity to call out someone as 'racist'. Like the girl in the Chinese prom dress mentioned in the interview.

Having said that, I think that whole cultural appropriation thing will run out of steam and is running out of steam. It painted itself into a corner that invited ridicule and its only lasting achievement will have been to supply material for comedians and satirists. In just under 5 minutes, Jonathan Pie nicely summed up how flawed it is.

To risk career and have reputation tarnished for voicing an opinion that challenges the norms does take courage, so I disagree with you.

I'm familiar with Jung's theories about projection and the shadow. The Beat dealt with it in Two Swords:

'Always attack those things in someone else
Reflections that you can't face in yourself
To make precious fascistic feeling gone
It makes you turn into a bigger one'

Though as much as I think it's true and valid in some instances, if you go by that theory as applied elsewhere, this means every Brexiteer that frequently complained about Remainers is a closet one. Or every Labour stalwart that does the same about the Tories is a latent Blue. And we could go on.

Btw, this isn't a cue to discuss the ins and outs of the EU or those parties' devotees, which would take things off-topic - I'm just using this to show that Jung's theory isn't always applicable. For one thing, Murray is as critical as Peterson of the policies being brought in ostensibly to benefit the LGBTQ community, in spite of the fact that he's gay. It doesn't mean being 'anti-LGBT' in the same way as criticising 'anti-racists', or rather the 'woke' ideas that masquerade as that, doesn't by default make someone racist.


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