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wally
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Trojan wrote:
Jonathan Pies On Cultural Appropriation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq74bZqbOqA


"Is it cultural appropriation if I listen to Donna Summer? Should I be discouraged from listening to UB40? The answer to that is obviously yes, but for a host of different reasons."

Christ, we're all racists for listening to UB40 and bands like them... who'd have fuckin' guessed?

"Segregated concerts - Lionel Richie and Jay Z for the blacks, fuckin... Adele and fucking Coldplay for the whites."

Think I'll stay at home...
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Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:53 am
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kennybacon
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In life in general, not everyone is going to share your opinion on certain matters, and never will. Therefore there is little point in trying to win an argument by convincing someone that their opinion is wrong and yours is right.

Both sides of the argument end up being frustrated by failing to convince the other of who's right.

Sometimes it is easier to accept we all have differing opinions and don't waste time and energy trying to convince them that you are right and their opinion is wrong.
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Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:59 pm
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wally
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Fair point Kenny, but I think and I hope the object of talking about this stuff is not just point-scoring but to try to explore a subject a little deeper. Opinions that contradict and challenge us and make us reconsider and re-evaluate our own.

Doggedly stinking to an opinion and refusing to let anything sway you seems a pointless exercise. Either we're interested in the "truth" or at least the value of our opinions or we're more interested in appearing right. I'd rather be proved wrong about something than proved right. It means I'm still growing and still learning. I'm not interested in idealogical dogma or flag waving.
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Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:19 pm
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Harry
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wally wrote:
Fair point Kenny, but I think and I hope the object of talking about this stuff is not just point-scoring but to try to explore a subject a little deeper. Opinions that contradict and challenge us and make us reconsider and re-evaluate our own.

Doggedly stinking to an opinion and refusing to let anything sway you seems a pointless exercise. Either we're interested in the "truth" or at least the value of our opinions or we're more interested in appearing right. I'd rather be proved wrong about something than proved right. It means I'm still growing and still learning. I'm not interested in idealogical dogma or flag waving.


If you re-read your first post in this thread you seem to be saying Murray is "the truth", you advise us to read everything he says and claim to have his book by your side. You seem to see him as a prophet/saviour. I don't see you re-evaluated your opinions or challenging yourself. You talk about "left wing lynch mobs" and 1984 Big Brother stuff but you don't seem to question anything in yourself... in what sense are you still growing?
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Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:48 am
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wally
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Ok Harry, I've re-read my first post and stand by it. I do advise everyone to read and listen to him, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Andrew Doyle etc. I don't insist that everyone agree with them but they are at the very least trying to tackle our modern taboos in an honest way. Prophets and saviours? these are histrionic titles for people who are just asking questions without prejudice.

The left-wing lynch mobs, specifically the cosmopolitan, woke, virtue signallers, do to my mind, reflect the ideals of 1984's Newspeak. They are propagating language and ideas that must not be questioned.

I question lots of things in myself as all of us do. I'm just trying to make sense of all this shit and these are the people who I've found to be making the most genuine attempt of it. In looking for them I've found myself listening to conservative and right-wing opinions which in 45 years of my life I never did. I always assumed they were monsters, cheats and prejudiced. I've found that it ain't necessarily so. What someone has to say about the situation at hand is more important than their political persuasion, as I proposed in my earlier post.

I'm 50 this year, and definitely less anxious than I used to be. Life is good, I'm very lucky. But I think we will and should always question things in ourselves.

How about you? You've posted a few times here but without really saying anything about all this woke business? What's your opinion about it? Have you no concerns about it? I think that's why Imani stared this thread in the first place.
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Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:33 am
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Harry
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Do you like Christopher Hitchens? I don't agree with a lot of what he says but he's got a talent to amuse and (like Orwell he speaks from experience e.g. when he investigated Waterboarding he had it done to him. When he wrote about stand up comedy he did go out and perform etc. ) His arguments and deeply held opinions on religion are very interesting. He had a lot more fight in him than the writers you list.
If to be "woke" means to be wide awake and alert to injustice and racism then being woke is a good thing.
What puzzles me is the way the president of the U.S. can say what he likes (e.g. Grab women by the pussy / I'm king of Israel / Muslims are scorpions/ Mexicans are going to pay for the wall) but he stays in power and none of it seems to registrar with you - you still present yourself as this put upon person whose every move is being watched by Big Brother.
Boris Johnson knights Sir Ian Duncan Smith - a man who has huge amount of blood on his hands - You don't seem bothered. What do you think of the way Johnson is trying to change rules so travellers can't travel? Why wont you question these powerful people? What do you think about Boris Johnson wanting water cannons when he was Mayor? Why aren't you interested in the Windrush scandal? Why do you turn a blind eye to all the important stuff and focus in on "left wing lynch mobs" you've read about on the internet that have nothing to do with you.
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Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:35 am
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Harry
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Imani wrote:
Adam Ant is still touring and releasing music unabated because fortunately his audience hasn't been infected by fictional ideas about being offensive. Now, if he was a relative newbie breaking into the charts, he might get a less welcome reception, at least from those folks on social media who seize upon any opportunity to call out someone as 'racist'."
.


In the 80s Ant had a single and a video banned by the BBC. Paul Simon was attacked over Graceland (he hadn't had a hit for a while and people said he shouldn't have worked with South African musicians for various reasons), George O'Dowd had to call himself BOY George and thousands of letters of complaint would be sent to the BBC, Annie Lennox was stopped in customs, Mary Whitehouse complained about everything. etc etc There have always been some people saying they are offended and there always will be.
We both love The Beat. I'm glad we agree on that.
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Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:43 am
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Do you like Christopher Hitchens? I don't agree with a lot of what he says but he's got a talent to amuse and (like Orwell he speaks from experience e.g. when he investigated Waterboarding he had it done to him. When he wrote about stand up comedy he did go out and perform etc. ) His arguments and deeply held opinions on religion are very interesting. He had a lot more fight in him than the writers you list.
If to be "woke" means to be wide awake and alert to injustice and racism then being woke is a good thing.
What puzzles me is the way the president of the U.S. can say what he likes (e.g. Grab women by the pussy / I'm king of Israel / Muslims are scorpions/ Mexicans are going to pay for the wall) but he stays in power and none of it seems to registrar with you - you still present yourself as this put upon person whose every move is being watched by Big Brother.
Boris Johnson knights Sir Ian Duncan Smith - a man who has huge amount of blood on his hands - You don't seem bothered. What do you think of the way Johnson is trying to change rules so travellers can't travel? Why wont you question these powerful people? What do you think about Boris Johnson wanting water cannons when he was Mayor? Why aren't you interested in the Windrush scandal? Why do you turn a blind eye to all the important stuff and focus in on "left wing lynch mobs" you've read about on the internet that have nothing to do with you.


I know you aimed this at Wally and probably he'll respond.
But the thread wasn't started with the intention of discussing Trump, Boris, IDS, Windrush etc. It's not that they aren't worthy of a discussion on another thread. It's just that they aren't relevant here - tenuous at the very least.

I know that reads a little harsh, Harry but you've already said you don't find the thread subject of any interest or relevance.
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Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:35 pm
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Harry
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Hi Imani, you asked me to look at an interview which features 2 privileged people saying how Martin Luther King's dream had happened and that people are now judged on the content of their character rather than their race. Their argument rests on that crazy notion that things now are just about perfect apart from mad students making out things have never been worse.
Murray is a friend of Boris Johnson. He is employed by Murdoch right wing newspapers and Boris Johnson's right wing magazine. He made a name for himself by comparing Islam to the Nazis. Ironically the interview with the woman you asked me to look at is quite similar to the way Hitler and co would present themselves. It's propaganda - it's nuts that you seem to think it's balanced. The points they base their strawman arguments on (e.g. "One person said Germain Greer isn't a feminist anymore. If Germain Greer isn't a Feminist no one is.") are piffle. Like astrologers, they are bogus scientists. The fact that they are posh and well dressed and speaking with enormous confidence seems to trick you into think they have great insight to impart. I am not against them because they are posh. My sister and several of my best friends went to Oxford and through them I've met many people like Mr Murray and got on fine with them. And, if Gyles Brandreth and Murray were giving a talk on Oscar Wilde at the Blackheath concert halls - I would be keen to attend as on that subject they know a lot more than me. I wish you would consider the source of your info more and the motivations behind it. I wish you would listen to other voices other than the right wing establishment and get your news from the horse's mouth or people reporting from the frontline. Then you could digest what they say and have an informed opinion.
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Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:42 am
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Hi Imani, you asked me to look at an interview which features 2 privileged people saying how Martin Luther King's dream had happened and that people are now judged on the content of their character rather than their race. Their argument rests on that crazy notion that things now are just about perfect apart from mad students making out things have never been worse.
Murray is a friend of Boris Johnson. He is employed by Murdoch right wing newspapers and Boris Johnson's right wing magazine. He made a name for himself by comparing Islam to the Nazis. Ironically the interview with the woman you asked me to look at is quite similar to the way Hitler and co would present themselves. It's propaganda - it's nuts that you seem to think it's balanced. The points they base their strawman arguments on (e.g. "One person said Germain Greer isn't a feminist anymore. If Germain Greer isn't a Feminist no one is.") are piffle. Like astrologers, they are bogus scientists. The fact that they are posh and well dressed and speaking with enormous confidence seems to trick you into think they have great insight to impart. I am not against them because they are posh. My sister and several of my best friends went to Oxford and through them I've met many people like Mr Murray and got on fine with them. And, if Gyles Brandreth and Murray were giving a talk on Oscar Wilde at the Blackheath concert halls - I would be keen to attend as on that subject they know a lot more than me. I wish you would consider the source of your info more and the motivations behind it. I wish you would listen to other voices other than the right wing establishment and get your news from the horse's mouth or people reporting from the frontline. Then you could digest what they say and have an informed opinion.


Harry, you're presuming to know what makes me tick, and what's informed my thinking based upon my posting of ONE LINK on one subject area.

I've said from the outset I don't do EITHER wing. Yet you keep attempting to try to align me with the 'right wing', which to be honest is amusing.

You may view things in a left/right way, and that works for you - but not everyone does. I follow information and if it rings true with me, it doesn't matter where it comes from. This is more difficult if not impossible for people who have some kind of emotional attachment or vested interest in their political leaning, because in a practical sense, it's virtually become their identity.


Last edited by Imani on Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
PostPosted:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:21 am
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wally
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I loved Christopher Hitchens and lament that we don't have his wit and intelligence to shout down the likes of Trump and the wokers today. He'd make short thrift of them. I even like his brother although I don't agree with all he stands for. But there's a man who knows before he's wheeled out on any discussion panel that he's going to be the whipping boy but he maintains his dignity anyway.

"If to be "woke" means to be wide awake and alert to injustice and racism then being woke is a good thing." If that was true, I doubt any of these people, including Imani and myself would have any issue with it.

Please tell me which other voices I should listen to. I'm always looking for new perspectives on these issues.
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Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:20 am
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wally
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Good article here from Andrew Doyle:

Why Im anti-woke
Woke authoritarians are a threat to freedom and equality.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/05/why-im-anti-woke/
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Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:27 am
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Imani
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The idea that 'woke' is 'anti racism'.

I have a cousin who's in her late 20's. She's mixed race (black dad, white mum) and is good friends with a white woman of the same age group but from a middle class, suburban background. Somehow she's gotten into this woke stuff, and all of a sudden, in conversations, my cousin was, in her friend's eyes, now related to as this 'oppressed/victim/minority'. Prior to becoming 'woke', race was not a prime factor in their conversations or friendship. My cousin, with her steady job and own house was a bit bemused by all this.

In the most innocent sense, a lot of people have a sense of something not being quite right in the world. When you're younger especially, you have an urgent desire to change things, and often a desire to be part of some group because to identify with a mass of people singing from the same song sheet can feel empowering. Even more so if the cause seems righteous.

This is what I see going on with 'woke', (though it's not unique to that movement). The problem is that with a smattering of information, they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim. Naive on the one hand, downright patronising and not much better than overt racism on the other. There is nothing 'positive' about this at all! Anyone who takes that victim status on board is prevented from seeing their own strengths, they believe others to be 'privileged' based on skin colour, and all the rest.

As far as I'm concerned, overly focusing on someone's supposed 'victimhood' is not fighting racism, it's inadvertently reinforcing old myths.
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:00 am
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Harry
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Imani wrote:


Harry, you're presuming to know what makes me tick, and what's informed my thinking based upon my posting of ONE LINK on one subject area.
.


er no. I'm not saying that.
But now that you mention it
Maybe YOU are presuming to know what younger people who describe themselves as "woke" think and you are getting it wrong because you are listening to how their enemies describe them rather than listening to what they are saying?
You keep saying Murray is balanced - try reading some books from another point of view
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:31 pm
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Harry
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wally wrote:
I loved Christopher Hitchens and lament that we don't have his wit and intelligence to shout down the likes of Trump and the wokers today. He'd make short thrift of them. I even like his brother although I don't agree with all he stands for. But there's a man who knows before he's wheeled out on any discussion panel that he's going to be the whipping boy but he maintains his dignity anyway.

"If to be "woke" means to be wide awake and alert to injustice and racism then being woke is a good thing." If that was true, I doubt any of these people, including Imani and myself would have any issue with it.

Please tell me which other voices I should listen to. I'm always looking for new perspectives on these issues.

Yes, both Hitchens have that unpredictability quality. I'm like you in that Peter Hitchen (although maybe not as sharp and exciting as Christopher) there is something really good about him and he seems more interesting the older he gets.
Well I'm a fan of Malcolm X and Audre Lord (I'm a heterosexual, white man whose never been very religious so obviously my life has been very different to there's but I do find myself thinking about what they say is hard to dismiss. There's a famous book called, "Why I've stopped talking to white people about race" which is half good and half annoying. The author (who is quite young) makes some good points. I thought "White Fragility" was slightly better. Yesterday I was reading Mary Beard's books about Women in Power. She is a pleasure to read as there are lots of jokes and lots of interesting references to Shakespeare, and the Ancient Greeks and Romans. Basically Malcolm X, Lord and Beard all believe our whole structure needs to be changed. Famously The McPherson inquiry concluded our Police Force is a racist institution. It's hard to accept because we have the best police force that I know and most of our Police are heroes BUT if we want to avoid disasters like the Mark Duggan shooting we would have to make big changes (not just sack one person or give a family some money to keep their traps shut). On Facebook and things like that I've found my admiration for Michael Rosen has grown over the years. He's a brilliant communicator, in my opinion
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:55 pm
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Harry
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Imani wrote:
The idea that 'woke' is 'anti racism'.

This is what I see going on with 'woke', (though it's not unique to that movement). The problem is that with a smattering of information, they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim. Naive on the one hand, downright patronising and not much better than overt racism on the other. There is nothing 'positive' about this at all! Anyone who takes that victim status on board is prevented from seeing their own strengths, they believe others to be 'privileged' based on skin colour, and all the rest.

As far as I'm concerned, overly focusing on someone's supposed 'victimhood' is not fighting racism, it's inadvertently reinforcing old myths.


This is an astonishing thing to come out with. Very ironic that you see "THEM" as patronising and ill informed.
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:59 pm
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Imani wrote:
The idea that 'woke' is 'anti racism'.

This is what I see going on with 'woke', (though it's not unique to that movement). The problem is that with a smattering of information, they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim. Naive on the one hand, downright patronising and not much better than overt racism on the other. There is nothing 'positive' about this at all! Anyone who takes that victim status on board is prevented from seeing their own strengths, they believe others to be 'privileged' based on skin colour, and all the rest.

As far as I'm concerned, overly focusing on someone's supposed 'victimhood' is not fighting racism, it's inadvertently reinforcing old myths.


This is an astonishing thing to come out with. Very ironic that you see "THEM" as patronising and ill informed.


Be as 'astonished' as you like, Harry. We have different approaches and perspectives and that's the bottom line.
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:46 pm
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Harry
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In the 70s some women insisted they should be referred to a Ms rather than Miss or Mrs. In the 80s Schools began to stop using certain words like "half caste" and instead adopt new terms like "mixed race". In the 1990s people began to insist we celebrated Indigenous Day instead of "Christopher Columbus Day". In my opinion when you listen to the people who wanted the changes their reasons are always fair enough and their motives come from a desire to want the world to be a better place. There were always bores in the Evening Standard attacking people that wanted the changes I've listed above by saying "In London you'll be arrested for singing Ba Ba Blacksheep, they wont even let you say blackboard, they wont serve you unless you ask for a Plough Person's Lunch" they would try and make out people from the Looney Left were like the Nazis.
In 1939 Agatha Christie wrote a book called, "Ten Little N***ers", In the 1960s it got changed to "Ten Little Indians". And now it's called, "And Then There Were None" I'm glad they changed it. At football crowds it used to be acceptable to shout "I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew" at Spurs fans - now it's not acceptable. To me, these changes are all positive and they did not come about because of people like Murdoch, Boris Johnson and Murray.
When people Black people talk about "White Privilege" or when Women talk about "Me Too" it's not because they are whingers it's because they want the world to be better for everyone. They want structures to change which depends on them speaking up. Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein wanted us to believe their accusers were lunatics, liars and fantasists. They tried to trash them but they failed. The next generation of actors will not have to put up with the same crap from the Weinsteins of this world. Is every aspect of "Me Too" good? Of course not. Is it possible to search Twitter and find a Trans person or a student (who believes in addressing White Privilege ) talking crap or being aggressive? Of course. Most people self identify as not being racist. I see being non racist and being anti-racist as different things
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Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:26 pm
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White Privilege - Jonathon Pie


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaz3z7vOU6I
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Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:21 am
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Imani
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White privilege is a recent construct, and where it exists at all, it's only applicable to a tiny minority of white people that may have materially benefited. But this isn't highlighted enough.

Certainly not everyone who's "non-white" sees themselves as unprivileged and downtrodden based upon their skin colour. And it's news to me if every white person believes themselves to have some innate advantages based upon colour alone.

It's dangerous to think that someone else has an advantage or disadvantage because of something that can't be changed - their race.

Surely it's better to ignore (i.e. don't believe) such nonsense.
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Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:15 pm
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