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Harry
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Imani wrote:

Surely it's better to ignore (i.e. don't believe) such nonsense.


I like Jonathan Pie and think he's often quite funny. This routine reminds me of an old routine by Ben Elton where Elton talks about being called a hypocrite when he says he's a socialist ("I notice you're still wearing shoes!)
So, Pie is misleading people into thinking White Privilege is about guilt tripping white people in 2020 about things that happened hundreds of years ago. He's wrong. And Pie says to get a job at the BBC you have to paint yourself black or they shut the door in your face.
Ok, in reality the opposite is true. Most BBC staff are white. The highest paid people at the BBC are white men like Jonathan Pie. Here's one recent example: The BBC pay non white woman Samira Ahmed £440 a show and they pay white man Jeremy Vine £3,000 a show. Ahmed had to go to court to get decent pay:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50599080
Here's another thing to consider, in theory the Tate Gallery is in a multicultural bubble but have a read of this feedback from last week...
"On Tuesday I took them to TATE BRITAIN it was shockingly evident how unwelcome and under-valued the collective presence of these black boys were in this building. . . Constant policing and radio-ing management to report them for walking past the demarcated lines on the floor, patronising statements from a white staff asking them to open their eyes when walking around, and constantly following us around the museum as they explored the art non quietly & constantly being told where to stand and where not to stand. . ." read full story here:
https://www.picuki.com/profile/smilingboysproject?fbclid=IwAR1e7XY0byycF4bH5_Y7E9GV1Lkvjev5Psq9_cDhV8ZBO6Hy35FpfBTeGb0
Now lets look at another case... Stuart Lawrence (brother of Stephen) is the same age as Jonathan Pie, they both wear suits etc - have a read how many times the police have stopped him:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/09/stephen-lawrence-brother-racism-police
Let's cut the crap if Jonathan Pie drove to Tate Britain in his car he would NOT be stopped. If Pie took half a dozen white kids to an art gallery security would NOT be called. If Pie got a chat show job at the BBC they would NOT pay him 4 times less than a woman who wasn't white.
Now let's look at the case of the way the police and the BBC handled the case of Mark Dugan. Would they of shot a white man if someone said he had a gun? Would they have lied about being shot at? Would they have lied about him being Europe's most wanted criminal if he was a white man? NO they would not dare. The things I have listed are just some of the millions of examples of white privilege.
Another thing I think is important is what questions Jonathan Pie would be asked if he were a guest on This Morning or Parkinson. Would they ask him if it was difficult to be a parent as well as a comedian, (they do this with actresses). Would they suggest his success was down to the BBC redressing the balance of how many white people they employed, would they ask him how many other white men he'd helped get jobs, would they describe him as "the white Lenny Henry?"
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Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:23 pm
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Imani
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Most of the BBC staff are white for the same reason that if you went to Jamaica or Trinidad, most of the personnel would be black at their main broadcasting outlets, despite both places being ethnically mixed.

In truth, I don't give my attention to the things you posted, Harry. If someone wants to fight those battles then best of luck to them. I've never been to the Tate but those places being elitist (not just to blacks!) is old news. Though that kind of incident doesn't happen in all of them.

The police aren't stopping and searching most black men in suits in Britain. Again, until that happens, I'm not going to get alarm bells over that 'stat' you posted.

I don't watch television and barely listen to the radio so I'm less bothered about the state of affairs at the Beeb than most. As for the BBC, it's on the wane anyway. With the internet and all the opportunities it offers for independent programme makers, the BBC has been eclipsed. They're no longer the first port of call for news nor entertainment and I'm sure the trend will increase.

Rather than hitting a brick wall, the independent route might be the option for those with an axe to grind, if they truly want to make change.


Last edited by Imani on Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:02 pm
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Trojan
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Harry wrote:

Ok, in reality the opposite is true. Most BBC staff are white. The highest paid people at the BBC are white men like Jonathan Pie. Here's one recent example: The BBC pay non white woman Samira Ahmed £440 a show and they pay white man Jeremy Vine £3,000 a show. Ahmed had to go to court to get decent pay:

If Pie got a chat show job at the BBC they would NOT pay him 4 times less than a woman who wasn't white.



That case had nothing to do with gender or race and everything to do with public profile. When you work in front line media how famous you are dictates your market value.

If you were making a film and wanted to cast both Danny Dyer and Meryl Streep, who do you think would command and get paid the larger fee?

Name one successful female chat show host who would have the same market value as say Michael Parkinson?

It's a fame game. NOT a race or gender game.
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Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:15 pm
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Harry
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Trojan wrote:
Harry wrote:

Ok, in reality the opposite is true. Most BBC staff are white. The highest paid people at the BBC are white men like Jonathan Pie. Here's one recent example: The BBC pay non white woman Samira Ahmed £440 a show and they pay white man Jeremy Vine £3,000 a show. Ahmed had to go to court to get decent pay:

If Pie got a chat show job at the BBC they would NOT pay him 4 times less than a woman who wasn't white.



That case had nothing to do with gender or race and everything to do with public profile. When you work in front line media how famous you are dictates your market value.

If you were making a film and wanted to cast both Danny Dyer and Meryl Streep, who do you think would command and get paid the larger fee?

Name one successful female chat show host who would have the same market value as say Michael Parkinson?

It's a fame game. NOT a race or gender game.

And how do you become famous? Somebody in power gives you a break.
I take your point, there was another case when Stephen Fry stepped down as host of QI and the BBC paid Sandi Togsvig much less - it's true Fry is much more famous. But what we are talking about is the claim "If you want to get a job on the BBC you have to paint yourself black". Clearly this is crap. If it were true when we turned on TV we'd always see non white people.
If I were making a film I would hope my male actors were like Mark Warlberg & co who insist their female leads are paid fairly. Directors like Woody Allen have been paying Women fairly for decades - it's not that hard.
When Oprah Winfrey interviews celebs she pulls in over 16 million people. If Parkinson was interviewing Billy Connolly he would have been lucky to get half that.
But my post was about the definition of White Privilege according to J.P
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:11 am
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Trojan
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Harry wrote:
Trojan wrote:
Harry wrote:

Ok, in reality the opposite is true. Most BBC staff are white. The highest paid people at the BBC are white men like Jonathan Pie. Here's one recent example: The BBC pay non white woman Samira Ahmed £440 a show and they pay white man Jeremy Vine £3,000 a show. Ahmed had to go to court to get decent pay:

If Pie got a chat show job at the BBC they would NOT pay him 4 times less than a woman who wasn't white.



That case had nothing to do with gender or race and everything to do with public profile. When you work in front line media how famous you are dictates your market value.

If you were making a film and wanted to cast both Danny Dyer and Meryl Streep, who do you think would command and get paid the larger fee?

Name one successful female chat show host who would have the same market value as say Michael Parkinson?

It's a fame game. NOT a race or gender game.


And how do you become famous? Somebody in power gives you a break.
I take your point, there was another case when Stephen Fry stepped down as host of QI and the BBC paid Sandi Togsvig much less - it's true Fry is much more famous. But what we are talking about is the claim "If you want to get a job on the BBC you have to paint yourself black". Clearly this is crap. If it were true when we turned on TV we'd always see non white people.
If I were making a film I would hope my male actors were like Mark Warlberg & co who insist their female leads are paid fairly. Directors like Woody Allen have been paying Women fairly for decades - it's not that hard.
When Oprah Winfrey interviews celebs she pulls in over 16 million people. If Parkinson was interviewing Billy Connolly he would have been lucky to get half that.
But my post was about the definition of White Privilege according to J.P



And how do you become famous? In the olden days that was down to either your talent or achievements.

I’m sorry, but nothing fucks me off more than some Hollywood female actor bleating on how they 'only' got paid $6 million dollars while the leading male actor got $10 million. They should just fuck off and join the real world.

Woody Allen...now there's a bastion of virtue.......


Oprah Winfrey would have a much greater population to broadcast to begin with. While Parkison is hardly know outside the UK. Hence Oprah market value would be much greater and it would have ZERO to do with her race or gender.
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:47 pm
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Harry
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"And how do you become famous? In the olden days that was down to either your talent or achievements."

Can you expand on this a bit?
(In regards to Jonathan Pie saying he came from a council estate and had a hard time and his conclusion is that in order to get a job at the BBC you have to paint yourself white.)
1) Are you saying you agree with him. That the black people who the BBC employed got their jobs because of political correctness?
2) Do you think white men are being held back?
3) Are you saying white men have to be twice as good as a black man to get a job? Or is it literally impossible for whites to get a BBC job no matter how much talent they have or what they achieved in the past?
And, on a separate point -
4) Are there any female actors who deserve to be paid the same as male actors? Or do you think men deserve more money than women do as ?
5) Should female tennis players and football players be paid the same as men if their TV ratings were higher than a man's match
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:50 pm
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Trojan
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Harry wrote:
"And how do you become famous? In the olden days that was down to either your talent or achievements."

Can you expand on this a bit?
(In regards to Jonathan Pie saying he came from a council estate and had a hard time and his conclusion is that in order to get a job at the BBC you have to paint yourself white.)
1) Are you saying you agree with him. That the black people who the BBC employed got their jobs because of political correctness?
2) Do you think white men are being held back?
3) Are you saying white men have to be twice as good as a black man to get a job? Or is it literally impossible for whites to get a BBC job no matter how much talent they have or what they achieved in the past?
And, on a separate point -
4) Are there any female actors who deserve to be paid the same as male actors? Or do you think men deserve more money than women do as ?
5) Should female tennis players and football players be paid the same as men if their TV ratings were higher than a man's match


The quote Johnathan Pie “Stop judging people by their gender, their sexuality or the colour of their skin”


How can the media/film industry talk about diversity when so many of them went to private school? You may see it as a gender and race thing. I see it as class thing. I have more respect for the female workers at the Ford plant whose strike lead to the Equal Pay Act than some Hollywood luvy who claims to be hard done by for earning millions for a few months/weeks ‘work’.

Harry, I have spent a life time in leftwing politics and trade union work. I admire your concerns but they are about as far away as humanly possible from the real problems facing millions of people each and every day.
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:11 pm
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Imani
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I have to say the pay scale of a Hollywood star or of the women's football or tennis aren't things that I'll lose sleep over. First world problems at best, and definitely someone else's. Couldn't care less and won't pretend to.
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:05 pm
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Harry
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Imani wrote:
Most of the BBC staff are white for the same reason that if you went to Jamaica or Trinidad, most of the personnel would be black at their main broadcasting outlets, despite both places being ethnically mixed.

In truth, I don't give my attention to the things you posted, Harry. If someone wants to fight those battles then best of luck to them. I've never been to the Tate but those places being elitist (not just to blacks!) is old news. Though that kind of incident doesn't happen in all of them.

The police aren't stopping and searching most black men in suits in Britain. Again, until that happens, I'm not going to get alarm bells over that 'stat' you posted.

I don't watch television and barely listen to the radio so I'm less bothered about the state of affairs at the Beeb than most. As for the BBC, it's on the wane anyway. With the internet and all the opportunities it offers for independent programme makers, the BBC has been eclipsed. They're no longer the first port of call for news nor entertainment and I'm sure the trend will increase.

Rather than hitting a brick wall, the independent route might be the option for those with an axe to grind, if they truly want to make change.

I know more than a dozen people who have been to Jamaica and none of them mentioned TV - it's not such a big thing over there - they are famous for TV like the BBC. Your point that most people in Britain are white therefore that's reflected on British TV is fair but if you consider say, Coronation Street has been on TV for 60 years and only in 2020 they have a black family it seems reasonable to suggest there could have been more of a mix.
White people don't choose less flashy cars as they are worried about being stopped by the police. I've seen white people smoke joints whilst driving around London but not black people - there is a reason for this. These things are "white privilege" (re Pie's definition"
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Last edited by Harry on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:21 pm
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Trojan wrote:


Harry, I have spent a life time in leftwing politics and trade union work. I admire your concerns but they are about as far away as humanly possible from the real problems facing millions of people each and every day.


This thread started with Imani saying we should read about Murray and his mate who believe that MLK's dream of people being judged by the content of their character and that their skin colour being no more important than the colour of their eyes, has happened.
I don't believe that has happened.
Yesterday Harvey was arrested and all the press I saw mentioned the Me Too movement. People (mostly men) come down on the Me Too women like a ton of bricks and say these women see themselves as victims. What these women are saying. Is not "Boo hoo, we're victims" - it is in fact... "We refuse to be victims any longer". The Me Too movement is a positive thing (although bits of it are dodgy). The Harvey case will change things for the better and not just in Hollywood. Everything is connected / there's a change going on.
A few years ago if a black member of staff got racially abused in a pub nothing would be done about it. I believe an increasing number of people see racism as everybody's problem and because of movements like Black Lives Matter they coming together
https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/24/pub-boycott-black-barman-attacked-six-white-men-12294983/
The Jonathan Pie clip does contain a misleading definition of what "White Privilege" is about. Racism is everyone's problem.
Having said that of course - Nietzsche said there were no facts, only interpretations. I was surprised how unfairly The Mail, Express and Sun criticised Markle for the very same things they praised Middleton for...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/meghan-markle-kate-middleton-double-standards-royal?fbclid=IwAR1iOGvp70vtk3ZN6dUAfuLof08vLWju4ntF7v6NcMVj4BEHQuaSybn8Cyo But Markle's Dad has said there was zero racism towards his daughter in the press.
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:44 pm
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Imani wrote:
Most of the BBC staff are white for the same reason that if you went to Jamaica or Trinidad, most of the personnel would be black at their main broadcasting outlets, despite both places being ethnically mixed.

In truth, I don't give my attention to the things you posted, Harry. If someone wants to fight those battles then best of luck to them. I've never been to the Tate but those places being elitist (not just to blacks!) is old news. Though that kind of incident doesn't happen in all of them.

The police aren't stopping and searching most black men in suits in Britain. Again, until that happens, I'm not going to get alarm bells over that 'stat' you posted.

I don't watch television and barely listen to the radio so I'm less bothered about the state of affairs at the Beeb than most. As for the BBC, it's on the wane anyway. With the internet and all the opportunities it offers for independent programme makers, the BBC has been eclipsed. They're no longer the first port of call for news nor entertainment and I'm sure the trend will increase.

Rather than hitting a brick wall, the independent route might be the option for those with an axe to grind, if they truly want to make change.

I know more than a dozen people who have been to Jamaica and none of them mentioned TV - it's not such a big over there. Your point that most people in Britain are white therefore that's reflected on British TV is fair but if you consider say, Coronation Street has been on TV for 60 years and only in 2020 they have a black family it seems reasonable to suggest there could have been more of a mix.
White people don't choose less flashy cars as they are worried about being stopped by the police. I've seen white people smoke joints whilst driving around London but not black people - there is a reason for this. These things are "white privilege" (re Pie's definition"


Consider the very real possibility that some just don't want a flashy car, and if they were able to get one, I doubt if fear of the police would stop them. And if smoking a joint in public is now elevated to being a 'privilege', then I'd hate to know what a disadvantage is.
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Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:49 pm
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Trojan
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Harry wrote:

Yesterday Harvey was arrested and all the press I saw mentioned the Me Too movement. People (mostly men) come down on the Me Too women like a ton of bricks and say these women see themselves as victims. What these women are saying. Is not "Boo hoo, we're victims" - it is in fact... "We refuse to be victims any longer". The Me Too movement is a positive thing (although bits of it are dodgy). The Harvey case will change things for the better and not just in Hollywood. Everything is connected / there's a change going on.
.


What pisses me off about MeToo was that this type of behavior was rampant in Hollywwod since the dawn of the film industry itself and no one said a damn thing about it. They obviously thought protecting their multi million dollar pay cheques as worth more than highlighting such behavior.

You have to laugh at the hypocrisy of one of the leading lights in MeToo, Asia Argento, who has admitting to having sex with a minor.
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Last edited by Trojan on Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Imani wrote:
I have to say the pay scale of a Hollywood star or of the women's football or tennis aren't things that I'll lose sleep over. First world problems at best, and definitely someone else's. Couldn't care less and won't pretend to.


My point exactly, Imani.
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Harry, whilst it's laudable for traditionally 'white' institutions to be more aware of being inclusive, I also believe not everything has to be diverse. As much as it was always a pleasant surprise as a child in the 70s to see people who looked like me on the box ('Even if it was a criminal', as Don Letts has said loads of times), I watched the soaps, Fawlty Towers etc with my family and we enjoyed it for what it was.

When you actually look back and see those rare examples of black characters in major British shows and films of e.g. the 70s, they're either not very good, or they just fall into stereotypical storylines. (See Don Letts reference.)

In terms of presence, it has improved immensely since those days. Anyone with a gripe about lack of diversity needs to look at how things were not so long ago, and they might then have some perspective. They don't even need to go to big corporations to get their voices heard now.
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Well, the Tate collection came about because Henry Tate made his money from transporting sugar (Tate & Lyle) from over seas and used it to buy paintings which he then donated to the nation. So, the Tate collection belongs to us all. Post brexit there have been incidents - none as bad as the guy in Notting Hill I mentioned yesterday but, for example, about a month ago a young girl from Peckham who works in the shop got told by a member of the public that she looked like a Golly wog.
There are 2 tates. Tate Modern has been one of Europe's main tourist attractions for the last 20 year. Over the last 2 years, tate Britain, for the first time since Tate Modern opened, has overtook - there have been a series of Hit, blockbuster exhibitions. The director made a foolish comment about being happy when she saw young black men in the gallery "eating their chicken". little things can mean a lot - dripping taps can drive us all crazy.
In my opinion a group of young black people should be able to come and see the collection and be treated the same as a group of young white people.
Equality is not like a cake - if we give rights to one group it doesn't mean there's less rights for other groups.
You told me recently to consider that not all black people want a flashy car. I have. It made me think about a guy called Paul Stephenson. In Bristol in 1963 only white people were allowed to drive a bus. Stephenson was inspired by MLK and Rosa Parks to organised a 60 day boycott of buses. The company gave in and so non whites got jobs. A year later he walked into a pub and was told to leave as blacks weren't welcome. He stood his ground and got arrested and went to court but eventually the pub had to serve non white people. Now, when you think of that story do you think all black people in Bristol were on his side? I would imagine a fair few were saying "You don't need to go into that pub, you could buy alcohol from an off licence" and i imagine there were a lot of white people saying, "there is nothing i hate more than a coloured coming over here and telling me what jobs he will and wont do and demanding he gets paid the same as a someone who was born there."
your brave hero Murray talked about George slaying a dragon and then running out of dragons and having nothing to slay. He says that young people wish they'd been on marches with MLK but that now everything has been sorted out and there are no dragons to slaughter. What I am trying to say to you is that that is HIS truth. In terms of being Mr Murray there are no dragons left. you can be a posh white gay bloke from Oxford and do anything you like, go anywhere you like, wear what you want etc But that is not true of everyone in this country. look at the way Murray's friend is treating travelers. do you honestly believe that Murray would swap places with a traveler?
https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20853-the-government-s-attacks-on-gypsies-roma-and-travellers-are-an-attack-on-us-all
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Galleries and museums belong to everyone, but I'll go out on a limb and say the incident you shared isn't typical of everywhere, Harry.

The 'fried chicken lunch' thing, which I had to look up, is an example of how a mountain gets made into a molehill. What exactly was the 'crime'? That she pointed out their colour and what they were having for lunch. Seriously, if this is the kind of trite example that causes a storm, then I suggest the plot has been lost!

(But here's a solution: Any young black person who goes to the Tate should bring a packed lunch of hummus dip, organic flapjacks and soya milk smoothies. That way, if anyone makes a remark on what they're eating, they're less likely to be sent to the Siberian salt mines.)

The incidents you've related (Bristol/Rosa Park) concern a different time, many decades ago. The only value those slices of history serve in the present is to show how far things have improved. THAT'S what I think, as you asked. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've a hummus dip baguette waiting.
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Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:25 pm
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Imani wrote:
Galleries and museums belong to everyone, but I'll go out on a limb and say the incident you shared isn't typical of everywhere, Harry.

The 'fried chicken lunch' thing, which I had to look up, is an example of how a mountain gets made into a molehill. What exactly was the 'crime'? That she pointed out their colour and what they were having for lunch. Seriously, if this is the kind of trite example that causes a storm, then I suggest the plot has been lost!

The incidents you've related (Bristol/Rosa Park) concern a different time, many decades ago. The only value those slices of history serve in the present is to show how far things have improved. THAT'S what I think, as you asked.


The chicken comment was an unwise thing to say from a gallery director wanting to encourage diversity (No body is allowed to eat chicken or take away food in the gallery) . As I said, little things mean a lot. The young girl was called a gollywog has left the Tate now. I doubt she will tell her friends to apply for work there.
I am not saving things haven't improved. I am not suggesting black people can't go in a weatherspoons or get a job as a bus driver. But they can't be a female MP without receiving racist junk and death threats, they (seemingly). Boris Johnson talks about taking class A drugs. As Corbyn pointed out Boris was born in America but Boris faces no risk of being deported. And would Boris and Murray swap places with a black woman and a traveller NO way.
And if you read the comments from Rose McGowan about Harvey W there is a link to what was happening decades ago. Her actions will make life easier for female actors.
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Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:44 pm
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Harry wrote:
Imani wrote:
Galleries and museums belong to everyone, but I'll go out on a limb and say the incident you shared isn't typical of everywhere, Harry.

The 'fried chicken lunch' thing, which I had to look up, is an example of how a mountain gets made into a molehill. What exactly was the 'crime'? That she pointed out their colour and what they were having for lunch. Seriously, if this is the kind of trite example that causes a storm, then I suggest the plot has been lost!

The incidents you've related (Bristol/Rosa Park) concern a different time, many decades ago. The only value those slices of history serve in the present is to show how far things have improved. THAT'S what I think, as you asked.


The chicken comment was an unwise thing to say from a gallery director wanting to encourage diversity (No body is allowed to eat chicken or take away food in the gallery) . As I said, little things mean a lot. The young girl was called a gollywog has left the Tate now. I doubt she will tell her friends to apply for work there.
I am not saving things haven't improved. I am not suggesting black people can't go in a weatherspoons or get a job as a bus driver. But they can't be a female MP without receiving racist junk and death threats, they (seemingly). Boris Johnson talks about taking class A drugs. As Corbyn pointed out Boris was born in America but Boris faces no risk of being deported. And would Boris and Murray swap places with a black woman and a traveller NO way.
And if you read the comments from Rose McGowan about Harvey W there is a link to what was happening decades ago. Her actions will make life easier for female actors.


That's the problem - little things are made out to be more than they actually are. The issue was a group of people eating food where it's prohibited. It wasn't a case of racism and why it's been construed as such beggars belief. All it required was for the person who saw it to deal with it internally. It wasn't a national incident. It wasn't even news-worthy.

For the last time - Boris, Jez etc and all that stuff just aren't areas that preoccupy me.
PostPosted:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:58 pm
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