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Information 'The Madness of Crowds?' Interview with Douglas Murray

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Harry
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Hi Imani, hope you're well.
You say: "The lockdown has nothing to do with this discussion." I disagree.
Murray's whole argument is that all the dragons have been slayed and there is now equality for everyone and people who say this isn't so are liars/snowflakes/babies - people who just want to be victims etc. When we were told there's a lockdown so stay in our gardens and don't panic buy, it comes from a Murray-esq assumption that everyone has a garden and that everyone has money stored put aside to stock up with. People like myself have done very well out of the lockdown: I'm on paid holiday and I have a nice garden to sit in. I would not want to swap places with a black NHS nurse who lives in a flat with no garden. Cummings view on Brexit was we should get it done so we would have freedom from un elected bureaucrats - his behavior and lack of remorse and lack of punishment is very relevant as he is an example of a dragon that hasn't been slayed. He's super powerful, we didn't elect him and we can't get rid of him. There is no Asian or Black Dominic Cummings is there?
You say:
"I didn't say anyone "should read" anything, because no-one was obliged to read it or share comment."
Ok, fair enough you posted the interview and said it was a balanced interview it's true you didn't insist anyone should read your post. It was Wally who posted in response to you: "I've been feeling the very same for the last few years and can absolutely recommend reading and listening to anything and everything Douglas Murray has to say (I have his book here beside me). He's always honest, articulate and unafraid of the politically correct lynch mob." And then you said you agreed with Wally.
And then on your third point:
"All I'll say is that it takes a lot of shoehorning to link the content of the Brewer/Murray interview with recent events in the USA." If you read your previous comments in this discussion it makes perfect sense for me to bring up why people are rioting. Murray says M.L.K's dream happened and that people are judged on the content of their character and not their skin colour. You said things like, " It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth." and "
White privilege is a recent construct, and where it exists at all, it's only applicable to a tiny minority of white people that may have materially benefited. But this isn't highlighted enough. Certainly not everyone who's "non-white" sees themselves as unprivileged and downtrodden based upon their skin colour. And it's news to me if every white person believes themselves to have some innate advantages based upon colour alone. It's dangerous to think that someone else has an advantage or disadvantage because of something that can't be changed - their race. Surely it's better to ignore (i.e. don't believe) such nonsense."

Then, on the subject of young people being "Woke" you said:

"This is what I see going on with 'woke', (though it's not unique to that movement). The problem is that with a smattering of information, they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim. Naive on the one hand, downright patronising and not much better than overt racism on the other. There is nothing 'positive' about this at all! Anyone who takes that victim status on board is prevented from seeing their own strengths, they believe others to be 'privileged' based on skin colour, and all the rest.
As far as I'm concerned, overly focusing on someone's supposed 'victimhood' is not fighting racism, it's inadvertently reinforcing old myths."
The reason I bring up the riots is because the rioters don't see themselves as victims they are people who are saying MLK's dream hasn't happened and they refuse to let things go on as they are.
Could you take a look at the list of people who died in police hands, think about why they died and say Murray is right to say all the dragons have been slayed and that people are complaining about nothing. And do you stand by your words, "they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim."?
http://therebelmagazine.blogspot.com/2020/05/white-privilege.html
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PostPosted:
Sun May 31, 2020 10:14 am
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
Hi Imani, hope you're well.
You say: "The lockdown has nothing to do with this discussion." I disagree.
Murray's whole argument is that all the dragons have been slayed and there is now equality for everyone and people who say this isn't so are liars/snowflakes/babies - people who just want to be victims etc. When we were told there's a lockdown so stay in our gardens and don't panic buy, it comes from a Murray-esq assumption that everyone has a garden and that everyone has money stored put aside to stock up with. People like myself have done very well out of the lockdown: I'm on paid holiday and I have a nice garden to sit in. I would not want to swap places with a black NHS nurse who lives in a flat with no garden. Cummings view on Brexit was we should get it done so we would have freedom from un elected bureaucrats - his behavior and lack of remorse and lack of punishment is very relevant as he is an example of a dragon that hasn't been slayed. He's super powerful, we didn't elect him and we can't get rid of him. There is no Asian or Black Dominic Cummings is there?
You say:
"I didn't say anyone "should read" anything, because no-one was obliged to read it or share comment."
Ok, fair enough you posted the interview and said it was a balanced interview it's true you didn't insist anyone should read your post. It was Wally who posted in response to you: "I've been feeling the very same for the last few years and can absolutely recommend reading and listening to anything and everything Douglas Murray has to say (I have his book here beside me). He's always honest, articulate and unafraid of the politically correct lynch mob." And then you said you agreed with Wally.
And then on your third point:
"All I'll say is that it takes a lot of shoehorning to link the content of the Brewer/Murray interview with recent events in the USA." If you read your previous comments in this discussion it makes perfect sense for me to bring up why people are rioting. Murray says M.L.K's dream happened and that people are judged on the content of their character and not their skin colour. You said things like, " It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth." and "
White privilege is a recent construct, and where it exists at all, it's only applicable to a tiny minority of white people that may have materially benefited. But this isn't highlighted enough. Certainly not everyone who's "non-white" sees themselves as unprivileged and downtrodden based upon their skin colour. And it's news to me if every white person believes themselves to have some innate advantages based upon colour alone. It's dangerous to think that someone else has an advantage or disadvantage because of something that can't be changed - their race. Surely it's better to ignore (i.e. don't believe) such nonsense."

Then, on the subject of young people being "Woke" you said:

"This is what I see going on with 'woke', (though it's not unique to that movement). The problem is that with a smattering of information, they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim. Naive on the one hand, downright patronising and not much better than overt racism on the other. There is nothing 'positive' about this at all! Anyone who takes that victim status on board is prevented from seeing their own strengths, they believe others to be 'privileged' based on skin colour, and all the rest.
As far as I'm concerned, overly focusing on someone's supposed 'victimhood' is not fighting racism, it's inadvertently reinforcing old myths."
The reason I bring up the riots is because the rioters don't see themselves as victims they are people who are saying MLK's dream hasn't happened and they refuse to let things go on as they are.
Could you take a look at the list of people who died in police hands, think about why they died and say Murray is right to say all the dragons have been slayed and that people are complaining about nothing. And do you stand by your words, "they see oppressors where there's no oppression, victimhood where there's no victim."?
http://therebelmagazine.blogspot.com/2020/05/white-privilege.html


Sorry to repeat myself, but please start another thread rather than trying to make tenuous links to this one.
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Sun May 31, 2020 11:11 am
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Harry
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You started a thread in a section called General Chat because your view was that
"It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth."
I have given you a list of people who died in police hands. These people weren't violent criminals they were people going to the shops, driving home, reading a book etc
Do you believe the police who murdered these people judged the people on the content of the character or do you think they judged them on the colour of their skin?
Do you believe the crowds of people rioting in the U.S. are snowflakes or thugs? And what is it you know about improvements in the last few decades that they dont?
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PostPosted:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:36 pm
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
You started a thread in a section called General Chat because your view was that
"It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth."
I have given you a list of people who died in police hands. These people weren't violent criminals they were people going to the shops, driving home, reading a book etc
Do you believe the police who murdered these people judged the people on the content of the character or do you think they judged them on the colour of their skin?
Do you believe the crowds of people rioting in the U.S. are snowflakes or thugs? And what is it you know about improvements in the last few decades that they dont?


I disagree with just about all of the perspectives you've shared on this thread. Do keep that in mind, because this is the only response you're getting from me.
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Sun May 31, 2020 3:37 pm
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Harry
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In the past Murray has had a lot more time and respect for Tommy Robinson and the E.D.L than he has for the Black Lives Matter movement
Maybe the views of Trevor Noah on how everything is linked up will give some people food for thought or a different take on things?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3B7Q-29FkpC9M61--RBHl2FBBSTrUQ7-ZCg9TL7VEnruB2iu3grDZnrB8
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:50 pm
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bombscare79
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Harry wrote:
In the past Murray has had a lot more time and respect for Tommy Robinson and the E.D.L than he has for the Black Lives Matter movement
Maybe the views of Trevor Noah on how everything is linked up will give some people food for thought or a different take on things?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3B7Q-29FkpC9M61--RBHl2FBBSTrUQ7-ZCg9TL7VEnruB2iu3grDZnrB8

Powerful.... I never listened to the whole Murray interview i switched off after a couple of minutes but if as you say "Murray's whole argument is that all the dragons have been slayed and there is now equality for everyone and people who say this isn't so are liars/snowflakes/babies - people who just want to be victims etc" then for me personally that can only come from supreme ignorance, or an impairment which affects a persons ability to process information or racism. Is this when the USA finally starts the process to end the oppression of their citizens because of the colour of their skin and ensure there are no more victims and how long before that arrives in the UK?
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:12 pm
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Imani
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I posted the link because I agree with the information, not because I subscribe to the persons involved or whatever their affiliations may be. I'd agree regardless of their political leaning because I've no allegiance to either side.

Another thing: How can I say there has been improvement? It's called FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE - i.e. what I've lived and seen. This has far greater validity than the second-hand observation of anyone who needs to compile a list of the most extreme statistics to somehow "prove" there's been no progression. If a high-profile incident of sexism takes place, it doesn't mean that things haven't moved forward for women in general. Only cynics would take that view. The same goes for race.

I've no time for virtue signalling folks that constantly cast blacks only in the light of being underdogs and victims as a way to show they 'care'. It's deeply patronising.

If my views clash with anyone, that's ok because I stick by everything I've expressed on the thread, with no intention to change. So, just to avoid repeating myself AGAIN, I'll leave this thread, finally.
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Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:57 am
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bombscare79
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No, come back. Ive never read such utterly preposterous statements. Id like to see if they could get any more ridiculous!
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Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:08 pm
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Harry
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Imani, I'm sorry I've annoyed you.
The Murray argument is that MLK's dream has happened and that there are no dragons left to slay.
You said:
"It's not acknowledged enough how much things have improved in the above areas since, say, the 1970s and 1980s when I was a youth."
Now you write in block capitals that you said this because of first hand experience but it feels like you're leaving the thread because you are unable to list a single example to back up your claim. If you want people to acknowledge how much things have changed for the better - now is the time to speak up maybe some people will stop rioting?
The big difference is the last few years is that people now have cameras on their phones so they can give examples of the way bad policemen treat black people. I don't know anyone who "constantly cast blacks as victims" but I do know people who because of recent events are less dismissive of Black Lives Matter, more willing to think about White Privilege. There's nothing cynical in wanting more equality or to have a better police force. The policemen who murdered George Floyd weren't born racists killers - I'm the opposite of cynic I believe a racist person can change their ways. I've got a friend who was once a member of the NF but changed his ways and re-educated himself because of 2-Tone . You could say The Specials woke him up. The dictionary definition of 'Woke' is to be "alert to injustice in society, especially racism." To be woke is not about patronizing people, being jaded or looking for trouble that isn't there. It's a positive thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4fX05cRL5o
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PostPosted:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:52 am
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Imani
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Ah, this again. Sainsburys have just created a 'safe space' for its 'black colleagues' (i.e staff) in solidarity with...you guessed it, BLM.

Ian Collins on Talksport neatly summed up this latest gaffe by the woke lobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3CUFtnb3GA
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Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:30 pm
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wally
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Quote:
I posted the link because I agree with the information, not because I subscribe to the persons involved or whatever their affiliations may be. I'd agree regardless of their political leaning because I've no allegiance to either side.

Another thing: How can I say there has been improvement? It's called FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE - i.e. what I've lived and seen. This has far greater validity than the second-hand observation of anyone who needs to compile a list of the most extreme statistics to somehow "prove" there's been no progression. If a high-profile incident of sexism takes place, it doesn't mean that things haven't moved forward for women in general. Only cynics would take that view. The same goes for race.

I've no time for virtue signalling folks that constantly cast blacks only in the light of being underdogs and victims as a way to show they 'care'. It's deeply patronising.

If my views clash with anyone, that's ok because I stick by everything I've expressed on the thread, with no intention to change. So, just to avoid repeating myself AGAIN, I'll leave this thread, finally.


Hear! Hear!
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PostPosted:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:39 pm
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bombscare79
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Imani wrote:
Ah, this again. Sainsburys have just created a 'safe space' for its 'black colleagues' (i.e staff) in solidarity with...you guessed it, BLM.

Ian Collins on Talksport neatly summed up this latest gaffe by the woke lobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3CUFtnb3GA

Ian Collins is a tosspot of the highest caliber and Talk radio is a cesspit of vile excuses for human beings. But hey keep plugging youre filth on this site if thats how you get your kicks..... Quite sad really.
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Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:54 pm
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bluearmy78
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bombscare79 wrote:
Imani wrote:
Ah, this again. Sainsburys have just created a 'safe space' for its 'black colleagues' (i.e staff) in solidarity with...you guessed it, BLM.

Ian Collins on Talksport neatly summed up this latest gaffe by the woke lobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3CUFtnb3GA

Ian Collins is a tosspot of the highest caliber and Talk radio is a cesspit of vile excuses for human beings. But hey keep plugging youre filth on this site if thats how you get your kicks..... Quite sad really.


LBC is as bad,some real wrongns on that station.
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PostPosted:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:22 am
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Imani
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Why would a company whose business it is to sell food, suddenly feel the need to have a "safe space" and "show solidarity against racism" and any other '-ism'? (Especially in light of one of its prime sponsors.) I might have understood if it was America 60 years ago but not Britain 2020. I wasn't aware the company had any race problems. It's bizarre, but this is woke all over. They've outdone themselves this year.
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Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:04 pm
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bombscare79
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Imani wrote:
Why would a company whose business it is to sell food, suddenly feel the need to have a "safe space" and "show solidarity against racism" and any other '-ism'? (Especially in light of one of its prime sponsors.) I might have understood if it was America 60 years ago but not Britain 2020. I wasn't aware the company had any race problems. It's bizarre, but this is woke all over. They've outdone themselves this year.
. Ahh because Britain is a racist nation. You have outdone yourself with the quantity of tripe you have come out with on this site but again i believe this is just a wind up surely no individual could be so utterly stupid.
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PostPosted:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:28 pm
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Imani
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Obama speaking about colleges and safe spaces (2015). UK safe space advocates take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIqTgGsl9YM
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Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:13 am
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wally
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Titania McGrath: Intersectional Feminist Icon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTbXjksvsbI
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Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:32 pm
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Imani
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Clip from a 2017 event at the Institute of Politics with CNN commentators S.E. Cupp and Van Jones in conversation with IOP Director David Axelrod on the current state of politics in America. This event was part of “America in the Trump Era,” the IOP’s look at the changes - cultural, policy, media and otherwise - coming under a Trump administration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zms3EqGbFOk

Even some of the most mainstream of mainstream commentators see "safe spaces" as a deeply misguided idea.
PostPosted:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:54 am
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wally
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Quote:
Clip from a 2017 event at the Institute of Politics with CNN commentators S.E. Cupp and Van Jones in conversation with IOP Director David Axelrod on the current state of politics in America. This event was part of “America in the Trump Era,” the IOP’s look at the changes - cultural, policy, media and otherwise - coming under a Trump administration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zms3EqGbFOk

Even some of the most mainstream of mainstream commentators see "safe spaces" as a deeply misguided idea.


Very good! Very well put. I don't know this guy, but I like how he cuts through the crap!!
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Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:13 am
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Imani
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wally wrote:
Quote:
Clip from a 2017 event at the Institute of Politics with CNN commentators S.E. Cupp and Van Jones in conversation with IOP Director David Axelrod on the current state of politics in America. This event was part of “America in the Trump Era,” the IOP’s look at the changes - cultural, policy, media and otherwise - coming under a Trump administration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zms3EqGbFOk

Even some of the most mainstream of mainstream commentators see "safe spaces" as a deeply misguided idea.


Very good! Very well put. I don't know this guy, but I like how he cuts through the crap!!


He certainly does. I like how he brings in his own parents' experience as an example.

The idea that only "right wing bigots" are against or actively challenging this stuff is obviously an invented one.
PostPosted:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:35 am
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